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To Tank or not to Tank, that is the question

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To Tank or Not to Tank

  • Yes, I want to secure a high draft pick and develop the young players.

    Votes: 209 71.8%

  • No, go for the most wins and play the vets.

    Votes: 34 11.7%

  • I'm still pissed that Disney bought Star Wars.

    Votes: 48 16.5%
  • Total voters
    291
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shoes22 said:
There's a huge difference between contending for a championship and making the playoffs. I still stand by my claim that with a few off-season moves, this team can and should go to the playoffs next year.

I think we should also steer away from the assumption that you need several "elite players" or superstars to compete for a championship. That's not true. The Chicago Bulls were the second best team in the East last year, with only one elite player in Derrick Rose. They were a contending team. The Dallas Mavericks won the championship in 2011 with only one superstar in Dirk Nowitzki. You don't need an all-star at every position. Just a bunch of guys who all buy into the same system, and do their assigned roles well. People need to look beyond the final box score, and see that we have an extremely young team with pieces that are coming together. I firmly believe the Cavs are on their way.
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I don't think anyone thinks we'll be contending next year, but I think that, if we draft well, the playoffs are a legitimate possibility. And that's not even including the possibility for trades or free agency signings to either get a starter or fill out the bench (which we intentionally did not do this year).
 
Cavs still need tons of talent. Both we and the organization should want to contend for a number of years not just hope to do it for 1 season. For that to happen they need much more high quality talent.

I'm all for being patient and acquiring young pieces and letting them develop but this has to be the last season for us to watch crap players be part of the regular rotation. I've about had enough of the Sloan, Pargo, Samuels types we've seen the last 3 years. It will be time to add legit players to support the young talent and provide some upgraded depth. That can be done without handing out big contracts or taking on those contracts too. The D League and reject type players need to be occupying the 12-15 spots on the roster not the 6-10 spots. This would also not at all go against the type of rebuild the Cavs have chosen.
 
STAT said:
I agree with this sentiment, but if Kyrie is to be a top 6 or 7 player in the league at some point (basically essential for truly contending), you'd imagine he'd will us to near 40 wins by his third season, right? I mean we're devoid of talent, but if Kyrie is going to be making the leap into super-stardom in a time frame similar to other one and done's (Durant, Rose, and Love to a lesser extent) I'd imagine we'd be gunning for the eighth seed.
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keep in mind he's taken a bit of a different path - lots of injuries, a shortened season, etc. those will all delay that process a bit. but generally speaking, i don't really disagree with the idea that a player supposed to be that good will sooner rather than later lead his team to ~.500.

that is one of the reasons i want so badly for varejao to be traded. basically, when you draft a potential top 5-10 player in the league, you will only have a finite number of chances to surround him with elite talent necessary to win a title. if you fail to draft said talent, you're likely headed towards the playoffs but nothing else for a very long time. that is exactly what we should want to avoid.

the cavs "gunning for the eighth seed" is exactly what i'm afraid of, on the other hand. assuming by gunning you mean actively making moves towards getting the 8th seed (free agency, etc). that is not good and too impatient. delayed vs. (semi) instant gratification, etc.
 
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I wouldnt mind trading varajeo if this draft class wasnt awful, however this draft class is awful, so why pick up a bench guy with a top 5 pick this year for varajeo who is a legit big man in the nba?
 
Triumph36 said:
keep in mind he's taken a bit of a different path - lots of injuries, a shortened season, etc. those will all delay that process a bit. but generally speaking, i don't really disagree with the idea that a player supposed to be that good will sooner rather than later lead his team to ~.500.

that is one of the reasons i want so badly for varejao to be traded. basically, when you draft a potential top 5-10 player in the league, you will only have a finite number of chances to surround him with elite talent necessary to win a title. if you fail to draft said talent, you're likely headed towards the playoffs but nothing else for a very long time. that is exactly what we should want to avoid.

the cavs "gunning for the eighth seed" is exactly what i'm afraid of, on the other hand. assuming by gunning you mean actively making moves towards getting the 8th seed (free agency, etc). that is not good and too impatient. delayed vs. (semi) instant gratification, etc.
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This team shouldn't have to gun for the 8th spot. If we can't get the eight spot next season, something is not going right. 3 or 4 top 5 picks and at least two more first rounders(TZ and LAL pick) alone should be enough to get us the eight spot in the East.

But, imo, if the right FA comes along, you need to be proactive. You can't wait just because the team isn't a contender yet. You wait too many times and all of a sudden you've let your best opps pass you by.
 
The fact that we were considering Bynum this offseason means that CG is not content with us being cellar dwellers for much longer. If the right FA comes along, we will pursue them aggressively.
 
Makes me wonder what they think Zeller's eventual role is going to be. If they see him as just a fringe level big man there's no way they would have traded three picks for him. If they keep those picks, at least we aren't being forced to watch guys like Pargo and Sloan and Samuels and Leuer and, now, Jones get regular rotation minutes. Next April we should have three picks in the 20-40 range. If we trade all three to move up a few spots to grab one guy he had better be a key piece in the long term plan.
 
Im not sure how anyone would think that a team hitting the p[layoffs at an average age of 24 would be at its ceiling.

With only two legitimate veterans on the team a Playoff run would be a good sign of things to come.

when you have a bunch of middle aged vets creep into the playoffs thats when your team doesnt have much of a ceiling.

this theory about continuing to draft and continuing to lose until one day they wake up and voila instant t contender is complete rubbish. the cavs have alot of young prospects. during the offseason they should be at a point where they will need to to start focusing on bringing in NBA players to the roster not just prospects. and hope some of their current prospect turn into genuine NBA players.
 
shoes22 said:
There's a huge difference between contending for a championship and making the playoffs. I still stand by my claim that with a few off-season moves, this team can and should go to the playoffs next year.

I think we should also steer away from the assumption that you need several "elite players" or superstars to compete for a championship. That's not true. The Chicago Bulls were the second best team in the East last year, with only one elite player in Derrick Rose. They were a contending team. The Dallas Mavericks won the championship in 2011 with only one superstar in Dirk Nowitzki. You don't need an all-star at every position. Just a bunch of guys who all buy into the same system, and do their assigned roles well. People need to look beyond the final box score, and see that we have an extremely young team with pieces that are coming together. I firmly believe the Cavs are on their way.
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Those teams are outliers.

The vast, vast majority have at least two star caliber players. You are wrong on this.
 
FiveThous said:
I wouldnt mind trading varajeo if this draft class wasnt awful, however this draft class is awful, so why pick up a bench guy with a top 5 pick this year for varajeo who is a legit big man in the nba?
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because he's still not a long-term piece here, and they are running out of time to capitalize on his value?

the primary varejao-for-pick trade seems to be with okc. a top ~5 pick (plus jones, lamb, whatev) is pretty good value for him, even with a weaker draft. there is also obv the possibility of the raptors finishing in the bottom 3, pushing the pick to the 2014 draft. it is a calculated risk.

shoes22 said:
The fact that we were considering Bynum this offseason means that CG is not content with us being cellar dwellers for much longer. If the right FA comes along, we will pursue them aggressively.
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very few, if any, free agents are comparable to bynum tho.

you can't force the right player to be available.
 
FiveThous said:
I wouldnt mind trading varajeo if this draft class wasnt awful, however this draft class is awful, so why pick up a bench guy with a top 5 pick this year for varajeo who is a legit big man in the nba?
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That's the beauty of the Toronto pick though. It's top 3 protected this year which the Raptors have a very legit chance of falling inside that range. Then all of a sudden we have a pick for next year in what is supposed to be a great draft.
 
how is anyone a long term piece with the prevailing two and 4 year contract cycle.

the point is if you play av out and ride him until he is done. you let him sail off into the sunset.

Thee is value a player provides to the team, on the court and to the fans thats real not just some hope.

There is really no need to trade Andy for something that has questionable short term value and mere potential long term value.

The team is doing fine acquiring assets without trading Andy.

You can position yourself long term all you want but id much rather take my chances with the teams development in critical years of these young players careers than some random pick.

The team might very well trade andy and get some picks but it wont be done without some proven player included.
 
i really wouldnt mind keeping andy till he retires. assuming he doesnt get hurt (and we dont keep him out longer than necessary for the tank, a big part of his missed games) he can produce for a few more years. and when he is over the hill, he will be a key piece off the bench i think..an all star big off the bench is something teams pay money for, who better to have than a (presumtive) all-star who's played his whole career on the team and whose primary focus is hard work. Sounds awesome to me. Especially since even having the best center in the league hasnt hurt our tank, might as well keep him.
 
Tornicade said:
Im not sure how anyone would think that a team hitting the p[layoffs at an average age of 24 would be at its ceiling.

With only two legitimate veterans on the team a Playoff run would be a good sign of things to come.

when you have a bunch of middle aged vets creep into the playoffs thats when your team doesnt have much of a ceiling.

this theory about continuing to draft and continuing to lose until one day they wake up and voila instant t contender is complete rubbish. the cavs have alot of young prospects. during the offseason they should be at a point where they will need to to start focusing on bringing in NBA players to the roster not just prospects. and hope some of their current prospect turn into genuine NBA players.
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lol, average age has nothing to do with potential to become a contender. just because players are young does not give them an unlimited ceiling.

the hawks, as pointed out many times before, were/are a great example of that. for years, they had decent to good vets (johnson, bibby, crawford, hinrich) plus good young players (smith, horford, teague) and some decently young role players (zaza, williams, etc). they didn't go anywhere. not the first year, and not years later when their younger players were closer to their ceilings.
 
Triumph36 said:
lol, average age has nothing to do with potential to become a contender. just because players are young does not give them an unlimited ceiling.

the hawks, as pointed out many times before, were/are a great example of that. for years, they had decent to good vets (johnson, bibby, crawford, hinrich) plus good young players (smith, horford, teague) and some decently young role players (zaza, williams, etc). they didn't go anywhere. not the first year, and not years later when their younger players were closer to their ceilings.
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Marvin williams was an underachiever. Johnson and smith had no chemistry and noone on the court had a true position.

the team never had more than one 50 game season and management made poor moves that locked them into the roster before it was proven.

The Hawks never really made any moves to address their weaknesses once they were competitive.

Their build was actually quite succesful and it now allows them to get GM who in one offseason has done more to improve the team than anything the front office did for the last five years.

the team was also a product of 4 years of tanking after 4 years of sub par play. that means the Hawks spent 8 years doing what ya want the cavs to do.

if anything the hawks made the wrong moves after they hit their 53 win season
 
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