Andrew Wiggins

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Jack Brickman said:

Why? It just means we won't trade Wiggins for Love. It doesn't mean we're out of the game altogether. We still have (imo) the best package to offer.

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I am older than most and though I am pining for 1 ring I am salivating at the possibility of a San Antonio type run which was predicated on having Robinson and then because of an injury getting Duncan.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I want to say something about Pippen. I lived in Chicago for a number of years. The Bulls fans I respected most were generally of the opinion that Pippen was made and molded by Jordan. Pippen was not a highly touted recruit. He was mostly an athlete with a shaky jumpshot.

I was not sure the odds of Wiggins becoming a top 5 player were very high after the draft, but with LeBron on the team I think his odds of racing to his ceiling went way up.

He is a raw player no doubt, but his contribution on defense is going to make him a difference maker this year.I just think all the young dudes upsides jumped a level.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

catfish said:

I am older than most and though I am pining for 1 ring I am salivating at the possibility of a San Antonio type run which was predicated on having Robinson and then because of an injury getting Duncan.

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I don't see how getting Love and keeping Wiggins would prevent that. Love is 25 and one of the best power forwards in the game. If he gets onto a winning team and makes some deep playoff runs, he'll be in the conversation as one of the best power forwards of all time, at least offensively. If you have a chance to add one of the best players in the league at his position, you should take it.

Our four stars would be 19, 22, 26, and 29 respectively at the start of next season. That's a recipe for a long run.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Jack Brickman said:

I don't see how getting Love and keeping Wiggins would prevent that. Love is 25 and one of the best power forwards in the game. If he gets onto a winning team and makes some deep playoff runs, he'll be in the conversation as one of the best power forwards of all time, at least offensively. If you have a chance to add one of the best players in the league at his position, you should take it.

Our four stars would be 19, 22, 26, and 29 respectively at the start of next season. That's a recipe for a long run.

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Getting Love and keeping Wiggins isn't realistic anyway. But if it did happen it could prevent a San Antonio run because we would have no one worthwhile left on the bench and very few draft picks to add bench players in the future. Not to mention we have no center, so the best one you will get is with a MLE next year. MLE centers are not worth a fuck, and neither is a bench full of 40 year olds on minimum deals.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

OptimusPrime said:

Getting Love and keeping Wiggins isn't realistic anyway. But if it did happen it could prevent a San Antonio run because we would have no one worthwhile left on the bench and very few draft picks to add bench players in the future. Not to mention we have no center, so the best one you will get is with a MLE next year. MLE centers are not worth a fuck, and neither is a bench full of 40 year olds on minimum deals.

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Basically the point I was trying to make!

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Cavatt said:

I want to say something about Pippen. I lived in Chicago for a number of years. The Bulls fans I respected most were generally of the opinion that Pippen was made and molded by Jordan. Pippen was not a highly touted recruit. He was mostly an athlete with a shaky jumpshot.

I was not sure the odds of Wiggins becoming a top 5 player were very high after the draft, but with LeBron on the team I think his odds of racing to his ceiling went way up.

He is a raw player no doubt, but his contribution on defense is going to make him a difference maker this year.I just think all the young dudes upsides jumped a level.

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Ya, Scottie's ascension to an elite NBA player was really paved by Jordan's work ethic and leadership. In Scottie's rookie season he didn't start a single regular season game. His jump-shot was broke and he shot 58% from the free-throw line.

That off-season, Jordan took Pippen under his wing. The played hours upon hours of 1 on 1 basketball interestingly enough. Jordan wanted to make Scottie extra competitive but also knew if Scottie could hang 1 on 1 it'd give him huge confidence come the next regular season. Jordan was right.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I'mWithDan said:

Dude, just stop.

I think most of us are operating under the assumption that 2015-16 version of Wiggins may not be worth trading PLUS assets, for 2014 with Kevin Love.

While I think Love makes us a title favorite, there's no guarantee we actually win a title.

Then a year later, Wiggins (IMO) is going to be a significantly better overall player than he was a year before.

A two way player that can effect the game on both ends. Those are so hard to find.

One additional year of a title window is not worth giving up that type of player PLUS other valuable assets. It's just not IMO.

I'm fine with trading for Love....I'm not fine with trading Wiggins + 1 of AB/TT/DW + picks for him. That is grossly overpaying relative to what the market is.

Kevin Love is the better individual player today.....duh....you're the only person that is still arguing a point everyone is acknowledging.

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Hmmm, what exactly is your argument? Wiggins is not projected to be a star by all advanced figures btw, I think my point is you "feeling" good about him doesn't mean much.

The reality is that Love is better than most #1 picks according to all the advanced stats we have on record. Your argument is extremely illogical and simply ignores the fact that LeBron and Kyrie will waste time waiting for a maybe-allstar player to develop, most likely not as good as Love. He didn't play that well in college, stop telling me to "stop". I'm just reporting reality to you as of today. If he develops ball handling in time to make us 3 or 4-peat I'll apologize. As of right now that is not the case according to all objective perspectives.

Sure I could be proven wrong, but it isn't statistically probable. Your path for the Cavs is simply not sound. Especially if you can steal Love for unsure prospects. It doesn't matter that he was "#1", he wasn't dominant in college according to neutral barometers of statistical success. It is that simple, also I only want the best for this team heh.

Also if the Cavs 3-peat somehow, that still doesn't mean that Wiggins is an-allstar either. This Cavs team has a lot of potential to succeed, that does not mean Wiggins will be the reason for it.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Hmmm, what exactly is your argument? Wiggins is not projected to be a star by all advanced figures btw,

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Brilliant. A 19 year old, super athlete can't be a star due to the "advanced statistics" in one season of college ball.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Baseline Runner said:

Brilliant. A 19 year old, super athlete can't be a star due to the "advanced statistics" in one season of college ball.

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Do you have a better draft rater than Kevin Pelton? Or even Hollinger? These guys have better predictive ability than 99% of people. It is not complicated.

The only thing that is hard to measure is that players tend to improve dramatically with LeBron on the court, but Love's game also meshes well with LeBron so there you have it.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Advanced analytics are years and years away from being able to take into account defensive impact the way they can offense. At least the stuff the public has right now.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

DevilOfACav said:

Advanced analytics are years and years away from being able to take into account defensive impact the way they can offense. At least the stuff the public has right now.

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This is indeed true, see I am capable of agreeing.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Do you have a better draft rater than Kevin Pelton? Or even Hollinger? These guys have better predictive ability than 99% of people. It is not complicated.

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Seems the only people making the argument that Wiggins doesn't have star potential are Minnesota fans such as yourself that just signed up here.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

He didn't play that well in college, stop telling me to "stop". I'm just reporting reality to you as of today.

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Reality? Your entire post is completely ridiculous, this is by far the worst bit. He was a 2nd team All-American as an 18-year-old, that's exceptional for a freshman. I guess being one of the best ten players in college last year qualifies as playing "not that well" to some.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I'm neutral on trading Wiggins. But he's not gonna be a plus defender for two years at least. No rookies really ever are good defenders. Lebron's prime is ticking so a trade to pick up Love might be the right thing to do.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

mvposter32 said:

Do you have a better draft rater than Kevin Pelton? Or even Hollinger? These guys have better predictive ability than 99% of people. It is not complicated.

The only thing that is hard to measure is that players tend to improve dramatically with LeBron on the court, but Love's game also meshes well with LeBron so there you have it.

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Pelton and Hollinger use formulas that they've developed that support their own biases though. Hollinger even said that he tweaked PER so that the results would be acceptable to the public - in other words, he settled on the formula when it had Jordan and Wilt at the top of the pile because he knew that no one would accept an overall rating that didn't have MJ up top.

This is called "the eye test" for advanced stats and its a very unscientific way to legitimize a statistic, but that's how it was done with PER.

So take Pelton and Hollinger with a grain of salt. I think PER, for example, devalues assists too much because if it didn't Jordan wouldn't lead the pack and that is almost a requirement.