Andrew Wiggins

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

nikolajz1 said:

I'm neutral on trading Wiggins. But he's not gonna be a plus defender for two years at least. No rookies really ever are good defenders. Lebron's prime is ticking so a trade to pick up Love might be the right thing to do.

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Wiggins will be a plus defender from Day 1. Your argument is most rookies aren't plus defenders, but Andrew Wiggins is no ordinary rookie.

There's a reason Wiggins was talked about for years before he even played college. There's a reason he went #1 in a loaded class. There's a reason the Wolves are holding out trying to angle him into a trade.

This kid is a special talent.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

CosmoKramer said:

Wiggins will be a plus defender from Day 1. Your argument is most rookies aren't plus defenders, but Andrew Wiggins is no ordinary rookie.

There's a reason Wiggins was talked about for years before he even played college. There's a reason he went #1 in a loaded class. There's a reason the Wolves are holding out trying to angle him into a trade.

This kid is a special talent.

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It could be that - or playing devil's advocate - it could just be because he jumps really high. You know, vertical leap is kind of like 40 time in the NFL - it makes GMs go gaga and because Parker is a little chunky and Embiid is hurt, Wiggins went #1.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

antistrat said:

It could be that - or playing devil's advocate - it could just be because he jumps really high. You know, vertical leap is kind of like 40 time in the NFL - it makes GMs go gaga and because Parker is a little chunky and Embiid is hurt, Wiggins went #1.

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Yeah, because Jeremy Evans and Shane Larkin both went really high as well...

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I don't know if Wiggins will be a + defender day 1, but above average for sure. My guess by year 3 he is a +defender and a rapidly growing offensive skill set.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Futuredome said:

I don't know if Wiggins will be a + defender day 1, but above average for sure. My guess by year 3 he is a +defender and a rapidly growing offensive skill set.

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Not sure if you understand what "+" means.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

MKG was thought to be as sure-fire as it gets defensively, with ideal physical tools and an ironclad work ethic, but even he has had his growing pains on that end. Realistically it may be 3-4 years or longer before Wiggins starts to poke his head into the upper echelon of wing defenders. You can point out that Wiggins jumps higher than MKG, but I think it's safe to say lack of experience is what's holding him back, not lack of leaping ability.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Nathan S said:

MKG was thought to be as sure-fire as it gets defensively, with ideal physical tools and an ironclad work ethic, but even he has had his growing pains on that end. Realistically it may be 3-4 years or longer before Wiggins starts to poke his head into the upper echelon of wing defenders. You can point out that Wiggins jumps higher than MKG, but I think it's safe to say lack of experience is what's holding him back, not lack of leaping ability.

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Right but when have you heard people around the Cavs say "He has the tools to become a good defender." or "He can be a really good defender in time." What you hear is "He is a phenomenal defender." "He has one elite skill: defense."

The debate isn't whether or not Wiggins will become a great defensive player. He already is. The question is how much better can he get.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

To all the people who are in so dire straights about us acquiring Kevin Love. Kevin Love's stats are empty in my estimation.

If you are a defensive matador, your stats are empty to me. Kyrie might have dropped 40 but he allowed 30. Efficiency people. It's tough for the average moron to understand, appreciate, let alone recognizequiet efficiency. Nobody wants to hear that, but it greatly improves LeBron's longevity, adds onto and expands what Bron and Wade had in transition, and willingly accepts and plays Kawhi Leonard's role as: guard the best player and blend into the team concept.



He'd be a great piece, and Love is a great fit, but I believe in the path of being steadfast, going against the "win-now" popular desperation, because I believe in the opportunity to build something even more sustainable like the Spurs. I DO NOT want to follow in the path of the Miami Heat; even if they did have success. I want to have more success than them! We have an opportunity on the table to build a dynasty from within.




Some of you morons (on the radio) don't understand the subtleties of why Wiggins is a desirable piece. Sure, he's quiet like Kawhi out there sometimes, he definitely has never shown me that insane competitiveness and venom of a guy like Kobe. That was one of my biggest knocks against him, but he's in a different situation now; he's not being asked to do too much, and he's got the ultimate big-bro to show him the light.

He's got a softer personality like LeBron. They call him "the pleaser" because he'll do whatever you ask him to; if it helps the team win. Combine that attitude with his athleticism, and you have one freak of a defensive prospect. Especially when LeBron is overlooking your career trajectory.

Some people still think he's going to flop under those circumstances? IDiots.




What direction is the NBA heading in? Smaller ball, more perimeter players. Get the best perimeter defenders/freak athletes in the open court. That sounds like a fucking recipe to me.

I think if Wiggins dedicates himself to mastery of defense, and visually absorbs how LeBron passes the rock; insane opportunity to get rid of (on our part) just to inherit the same depth problems of Miami just to get our version of Chris Bosh.

We could have a Bruce Bowen/Glove type defender born into T-Mac's body on our hands, who could help LeBron James guard the perimeter. Think about that!?! commmon now! Most athletic wings in the league by a wide margin. Nobody is mentioning that. That's the fact/statement that is being undersold the most in the media.


LeBron James and Andrew Wiggins in the open court, playing perimeter defense for you! with Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett lurking on the secondary break. I didn't even mention Andy Varejao, and the synergy between he, James, and Kyrie is going to be fuckin masterful. If JJ Hickson looked passable, I'm sure LeBron will spoon feed Tristan too.

I find it very hard to believe that James would be in support of any deal where Wiggins was traded. Andrew can help take the load off him that much where you are getting a fresher, healthier, happier LeBron out there.

Fuckin Andrew doesn't need a killer instinct on this team, he's already shown that million dollar smile; when you play with a happy LeBron James and a joyous Kyrie Irving and Varejao; that's scary, that's electric. Watching the Cavaliers will probably ease depression with all of that athletic expression.

Kyrie, Andy, Tristan, Wiggins, Bennett, Dion; all these guys will be sporting Magic Johnson size smiles out there, the momentum is going to be insane. The joy on the court (once we settle in) is going to be on another planet.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

antistrat said:

Pelton and Hollinger use formulas that they've developed that support their own biases though. Hollinger even said that he tweaked PER so that the results would be acceptable to the public - in other words, he settled on the formula when it had Jordan and Wilt at the top of the pile because he knew that no one would accept an overall rating that didn't have MJ up top.

This is called "the eye test" for advanced stats and its a very unscientific way to legitimize a statistic, but that's how it was done with PER.

So take Pelton and Hollinger with a grain of salt. I think PER, for example, devalues assists too much because if it didn't Jordan wouldn't lead the pack and that is almost a requirement.

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There's no point in arguing with him, he's either delusional or trolling and it's been happening for days. Throw a blanket over the flaming bag of crap and eventually it will burn out.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Damien O'Connel said:

Right but when have you heard people around the Cavs say "He has the tools to become a good defender." or "He can be a really good defender in time." What you hear is "He is a phenomenal defender." "He has one elite skill: defense."

The debate isn't whether or not Wiggins will become a great defensive player. He already is. The question is how much better can he get.

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Sorry, but I'm not going to blindly buy into that kind of hype. He was a very good defender in college, though not without flaws. He's looked very promising so far in a few summer league games (Kyle Anderson is having his way with the Bucks as we speak...Wiggins shut him down). But it's downright foolish to proclaim him a "phenomenal defender" before he's played a single NBA minute.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

antistrat said:

Pelton and Hollinger use formulas that they've developed that support their own biases though. Hollinger even said that he tweaked PER so that the results would be acceptable to the public - in other words, he settled on the formula when it had Jordan and Wilt at the top of the pile because he knew that no one would accept an overall rating that didn't have MJ up top.

This is called "the eye test" for advanced stats and its a very unscientific way to legitimize a statistic, but that's how it was done with PER.

So take Pelton and Hollinger with a grain of salt. I think PER, for example, devalues assists too much because if it didn't Jordan wouldn't lead the pack and that is almost a requirement.

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As you suggest, PER is a worthless number. It is not "advanced" metrics.

Now Hollinger's draft rater -- the formula for which he never made public, to my knowledge -- is a different matter. So far as we can tell, and Hollinger was somewhat confusing on the matter, it is completely different from PER.

That said, Pelton's WARP, Win Score, and Wins Produced metrics were not good for Wiggins, and don't preduct immediate success. Not surprising, since he wasn't overly successful at Kansas.

Now admittedly it is difficult to project NBA performance based on college stats, especially for young players. Soon Wiggins will be making $5.5M. Does he have the drive to be great? Does being a teammate of LeBron make that more likely? Those are the questions the Cavs need to be asking, because he isn't likely to be very good this year.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I think Wiggins will definitely be a plus defender this year, but the people that don't think he will better hope he is or he will contribute almost nothing to the team this year.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

That's absurd to think Wiggins won't be a very good defender from day one. Of course he's going to have some weaknesses, and will be prone to being out of position at times, and there will be a learning curve to adjust to as well. Wiggins has a ridiculous wing span, he moves very good laterally, he has great natural instincts towards the basketball, and is already a great natural help defender. It's just in his DNA.

What's more odd, he's a lot more aggressive defensively than he is offensively. The one thing he'll have to be careful with is foul trouble possibly. I could see that as a concern early in his career. This guy can step in from day one, and use his size and natural tools to cause a lot of trouble for many shooting guards in the NBA.

I wouldn't label him quite yet a Kobe Bryant-stopper, but he's going to be a mismatch for many 2 guards in this league.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

I guess we should keep Dion over Wiggins as Hollingers draft rater had him as the best wing to come out since Dee Wayne Wade.

Re: #1: Andrew Wiggins - G/F - Kansas University

Anyone that trades a future MVP for a soon to be 26 year old who can't play defense is an absolute fool.