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Jim Thome Retires an Indian

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Saw the statue. Not a huge fan, but whatever.

One thing I dont get, how do you not have it pointing at home plate? Im not sure why, but I feel like that should have been done.
 
Giving him a statue is so odd to me. Maybe I'm just playing favorites, but I feel like Lofton or Vizquel should have gotten statues before Thome if they were dead set on making one.
 
Giving him a statue is so odd to me. Maybe I'm just playing favorites, but I feel like Lofton or Vizquel should have gotten statues before Thome if they were dead set on making one.

Thome was a MUCH better player than those 2.
 
Agree with Max on this.

I like Thome, even when he left to Philly.. I didn't blame him. I felt the two sides were going different directions during that time. But, still, Thome has been an overall good player in the game of baseball. I don't think he deserves a statue more than other 90's Indians.

Are they going to give Manny one? Lofton?

Side note: Why isn't No.7 retired? I saw their little banner at the ballpark of Kenny Lofton and the number 7, which doesn't explain to me why David Murphy is using the No.7.
 
I like Thome but a statue of him is a little silly to me.

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Maybe some of this was directed at me, maybe it wasn't. Either way, ill clarify my point. I'm not grinding an ax and I certainly don't think Jim's an asshole. He's one of my favorite players of all time. That said, I don't think he did anything to warrant a statue. We aren't talking about retiring a number or putting him in the Indians HOF...we are talking about a statue. In my opinion, statues are reserved for the Ruth's, Jordan's, Jeter's of the world...not Jim Thome.

Nope, my post was about something totally different. Was going to make a seperate post addressing your very real query re: Thome, which I understood: does he deserve that kind of 'legend' status? And the answer is, in my opinion, a 'yes'.

  • For starters, Jim Thome is 7th All-time in home runs. These are the guys ahead of him: Bonds, Aaron, Ruth, ARod, and Griffey. That's it. Every one of those guys isarguably the best ever at their respective positions. He bested every one of the juicers from the Steroid Era except Bonds (who was one of the best of all time before he juiced anyway) and ARod. Based on probably the most definitive stat in baseball, he is a legend. Right there. To have the 7th most HRs in 130 years of baseball? You could end the argument there.

Other key numbers for Thome:
  • 1,747 career walks (7th all-time)
  • 2,548 Ks (2nd all-time, more than Christy Matthewson, Don Drysdale and Sam McDowell)
  • 1, 089 XBHs (20th all-time)
  • 13.8 AB/HR (4th all-time)
  • .956 career OPS (18th all-time)
  • .554 SLG (24th all-time)
  • 1699 RBIs (24th all-time)
  • 72.9 career WAR (84th all-time, 54th among position players)
  • 77.1 offensive WAR (43rd all-time)
  • .402 career OBP (51st all-time)
  • 17 career postseason HRs (Tribe record)

  • Coming back from the back injury. Thome had a balky back starting in his last year or two here (I don't remember exactly when he hurt it first), but he could have easily hung it up after 2006. Instead, he came back and swatted 228 more HRs. All while playing part time. All from a guy who had trouble bending over. Thome gutting out those last 10 years of his career are similar to how Z gutted it out after the foot surgeries- only if Z had been on a HOF pace before the wheels failed him.


When you look back on it, it boggles the mind that he wasn't recognized more. But it also makes sense- he didn't toot his own horn, he was self-depricating on a team and in an era with some very self-aggrandizing personalities. One of the greatest sluggers of all-time just played 20 years in the league, a 13th rnd selection who didn't make the bigs until his 3rd try... and people didn't fully realize it. He was one of those guys you waited until after his AB to go to the concession stand (not Clevelanders, of course, they have TVs in the concourse for a reason thank you very much). For being a guy who struck out a ton his lowest BA during his prime here was .269 and he bested .300 three times in that stretch. He had prodigious power and utilized all of it.

Why a statue? Because despite the numbers, despite the power, plate discipline and being arguably the greastesst 3 True Outcomes player of All Time- we are here having to have this discussion. Yeah, he deserves it, and maybe folks will start to remember just how lucky they were to see a power hitter named Jim Thome.
 
Maybe some of this was directed at me, maybe it wasn't. Either way, ill clarify my point. I'm not grinding an ax and I certainly don't think Jim's an asshole. He's one of my favorite players of all time. That said, I don't think he did anything to warrant a statue. We aren't talking about retiring a number or putting him in the Indians HOF...we are talking about a statue. In my opinion, statues are reserved for the Ruth's, Jordan's, Jeter's of the world...not Jim Thome.

Jeter doesn't belong in same zip code of Ruth or Jordan. In fact, he isn't in Thome's class as a ballplayer either.
 
Facts of the matter are that the Indians at the time were in rebuilding mode. Paying Thome what the Phillies were offering would have put a serious hurt on the payroll. Jim also felt alot of pressure from the players Union to take the Phillies offer. Players back then just didn't reject offers like that when the home team was offering alot less. Did Jim WANT to leave? I highly doubt it. Jim was always a humble man who played the game the right way. He is one of the greatest Indians, EVER. Well deserved honor, just like Omar being put in the Indians HOF.

I've heard this a lot and I'm not just buying it. If Jim Thome wanted to stay, Jim Thome wanted to stay. He didn't. He didn't want to be a part of a rebuild. He wanted to go somewhere where he could possibly contend for a World Series title. He also had his wife pushing him to a bigger media market.

As a free agent, he had the right to leave, as he should. In July of his final season here, the Indians asked him what he wanted to do - get traded to a contender, where he could compete for a World Series title, or stay. He said he wanted to stay. He pronounced his strong desire to be an Indian for life, uttering the famous "they'll have to tear the jersey off of my back" line around that time.

In November of 2002, the Indians offered Jim Thome a fair deal, believed to be in the neighborhood of $12 M per year. The offer also included a guaranteed front office job when he retired, several local baseball fields to be constructed in his name, and a statue.

Thome said no.

These are my problems with it:

1) When the Indians approached Thome in July, it would have been a good time to sit down with his wife and consider the future. Surely he knew another team would offer more than the Indians could. If he wanted to move on, he could have agreed to waive his no-trade clause to allow the Indians to trade him to a contender, getting him a shot at a championship and the Indians a nice haul of prospects to accelerate the rebuild. He didn't, which set the organization back a bit.

2) As another person pointed out, statues are usually reserved for guys like Michael Jordan, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, and Jackie Robinson. Jim Thome is a Hall of Famer and one of the best Indians of all-time. I'd be OK with his number being retired. But a statue? That's for a guy so special, so unique, so important to his sport that simply retired a jersey number isn't enough.

3) Larry Doby.

Larry Doby was not only a great player, he changed the game of baseball as we know it. Jackie Robinson gets all of the accolades for breaking the color barrier, but people outside of Cleveland often forget that Larry Doby went through the exact same adversity Jackie did. Doby debuted for the Indians 11 weeks after Robinson played his first game for the Dodgers - 11 weeks. He was shut out of hotels and restaurants his white teammates stayed in, he was berated with awful, degrading harassment by fans, and he was shunned by some teammates and opposing players. He went through the exact same thing as Jackie Robinson a pretty much the exact same time as Jackie Robinson.

In the end, Larry Doby played 10 seasons with the Cleveland Indians. He was the first black player to integrate the American League, first to go directly from the Negro Leagues to MLB, first black player to win a World Series, second black manager, a seven-time all-star, and helped lead the Indians to two World Series appearances, winning in 1948. He also served in the United States Navy during World War II.

Larry Doby changed the game of baseball. So did Michael, Babe, and Jackie. Those are the types of guys of get statues, not guys like Jim Thome.
 
I wasn't a fan of Thome getting a statue in the first place, for reasons that I stated in the original promotions thread months ago.

After watching all of the festivities and listening to his speech and everything, I've warmed up to it a bit. Would have still rather seen Larry Doby get a statue, but outside of Feller and I guess Thome now, nobody in Indians history has produced statistically to the point where they should get a statue.
 
Thome was a MUCH better player than those 2.

It's important to remember that Thome was pretty much a DH-only player for 9 of his 22 seasons. Omar, who will be a Hall of Famer as well, provided not only very good offensive numbers but was one of the (if not the) best defensive shortstops of all-time. I think their overall impact in their primes is actually pretty close.

Jeter doesn't belong in same zip code of Ruth or Jordan. In fact, he isn't in Thome's class as a ballplayer either.

Completely different types of players. Jeter has far more hits, runs scored, doubles, and steals with a much higher career average and much fewer strikeouts. Thome has far more home runs, runs batted in, and walks. I give Jeter the nod not only because he played the field, but also because of this:

Career in the Postseason

Thome - .211/.312/.448/.760
Jeter - .308/.374/.465/.838

Jeter is not only one of the greatest players of all-time, he's also one of the greatest clutch postseason performers of all-time. I hate the Yankees as much as the next guy, but Jeter's had a better career than Thome.
 
It's important to remember that Thome was pretty much a DH-only player for 9 of his 22 seasons. Omar, who will be a Hall of Famer as well, provided not only very good offensive numbers but was one of the (if not the) best defensive shortstops of all-time. I think their overall impact in their primes is actually pretty close.



Completely different types of players. Jeter has far more hits, runs scored, doubles, and steals with a much higher career average and much fewer strikeouts. Thome has far more home runs, runs batted in, and walks. I give Jeter the nod not only because he played the field, but also because of this:

Career in the Postseason

Thome - .211/.312/.448/.760
Jeter - .308/.374/.465/.838

Jeter is not only one of the greatest players of all-time, he's also one of the greatest clutch postseason performers of all-time. I hate the Yankees as much as the next guy, but Jeter's had a better career than Thome.

I have no idea how you can post OPS numbers in the same post where you say Omar, career 88 OPS+, had good offensive numbers.

Let's examine the Jeter/Thome debate. First of all, you are completely ignoring the regular season, which is arbitrary and wrong. Thome's regular season number dwarf Jeter's.

If we even allow that and look at the "clutch" factor, Thome was actually better than Jeter in LCS and World Series play. Jeter's advantage comes from ALDS play. If Jeter was so clutch, wouldn't he up his game as the playoffs got deeper, like Thome did?

Jeter had a great career and is a HOF. But this notion that he is a transcendent, one in a generation player is ESPN filled baloney. If he has the same career with the Royals, people would view him as borderline HOF.
 

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