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This is the core of our disagreement, and it's an argument of convenience for your personal views rather than one based on the facts. I do not believe for a moment that attacks against the U.S. would cease if we stopped supporting Israel.
Again, you're setting up impossible hurdles to overcome in order to support your viewpoint and marginalize mine. I am not saying terrorist attacks against the United States would end. Rather, I said, explicitly, that if the United States adopted a policy more in-line with the Muslim population who lives in the region, we would immediately nullify a very large recruitment base for groups based on radical jihad.
But, again, you twist what was said into false dilemmas when in fact the argument being made is just slightly more nuanced than you allow for.
So to be clear: I am not saying terrorism would end. I am saying that we would not see as many willing to join groups like ISIS to fight against the West. It would work in our favor. Groups like Al Qaeda had marginal (almost nonexistent) support in the 90s; we
can get back to that poin
t.
As I've pointed out elsewhere, there are other nations that do not share our position on Israel that nevertheless have been the subject of terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists.
I think you might be conflating ideologies here. Again, you're confusing the goals of groups like Al Qaeda with the goals of groups like the Islamic State.
Moreover, again as I mentioned elsewhere, I do not believe that having Israel withdraw to the 1967 borders and paying some reparations to displaced Palestinians would be a satisfactory resolution for the radicals anyway.
It wouldn't be a satisfactory solution for radical Muslims OR radical Jews OR radical Christians. I think this point is a given; hence the term "radical." I've already said we should not be engaging radicals, we should be bombing them; what I have said is that we should disarm them and the best way in doing so is to mitigate the causes of
radicalization. Right now, this exact debate is being had in the halls of UK Parliament (but not in Congress). It's a very important conversation to have.
You've tried to set up yourself as being a particular authority on the motivations of those who join ISIS. AQ, and other extreme groups, and I for one don't buy it.
You don't buy it because it would require you to listen. Look at your reasons listed below.
Not unless you've personally been in those groups, had long discussions with those members, etc..
Right, so I would need to be in ISIS for you to accept my anecdotal opinion for what it is (and offered as nothing more than that). But rather than actually reading my posts, seeing my point of view and how I've compared it to that of al-Baghdadi and bin Laden, you simply dismiss it (of course), because I am not a member of ISIS.
But b your own admission, you're not a radical along those lines, so you're getting your information second hand just like the rest of us do.
No I'm not a radical; but your conclusion does not follow the premise. I don't get my information from the same sources as you do. Unlike you, as I've said, I have family who I communicate with regularly via social media, emails, and secure chats where we discuss the situation on the ground in Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, and yes Syria and Iraq. Most of my family lives in the region - I am an Egyptian-American.
But again, anecdotal. So I point you towards Arabic/Islamic social media, political outlets, news outlets, etc that you could read - but then instead you discount my opinion (why?) and my advice (why?).
Personally, I don't think you're ready to change your mind - so anything that might cause you to rethink your positions is pretty much off limits.
Lastly, if you really think I'm getting my news from the same "sources" that you do, you are wildly mistaken.
And unless we've all been living under rocks, there have been a multitude of public statements, both written and verbal, by both leaders and the rank-and-file of those groups, where we can all listen to the words as they come out of their mouths. And I've heard nothing that leads me to believe that Palestine is the Gordian knot that would cut all of this. Nor do I believe their actions are consistent with people whose primary motive is defeating Israel.
I'll put it this way, I've quoted numerous people in these groups already who reference Palestine as an example of how "Muslim lives are worth less than nothing." How "Freedom in Palestine, Syria, and Egypt would go so far in establishing dialogue." How bin Laden and al-Baghdadi used the Palestinian issue regularly to recruit disillusioned Western educated Muslims.
But, since that doesn't seem to fit into your own personal worldview, you again disregard it.
At this point, it's just gotten ridiculous. I've gone out of my way to demonstrate the importance of the Palestinian issue. I've cited polls, I've quoted the leaders of these groups, I've referenced popular Islamic voices; yet, to no response.
Right, almost forgot. All our troops have died because the Jews and their lobby.
...How can people expect me not to respond condescendingly to comments like this? When I actually try to offer an informed opinion, this is what I'm being hit with? I'd punch someone in the face for saying this type of shit.
Simply put Q-Tip, you're not actually making a logical argument. You are reasserting your point of view, but not offering factual premises that can be disputed, or whose interpretation can be analyzed and critiqued. In this entire post, you've not actually made a single, factual case to back up your claims.
Going to just respond in numerals because it's not worth responding to:
1) American position is not a solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict as we only support Israel's international position in the Security Council. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that the United States is not interested in an international solution, but instead, one that Israel is 100% committed to. Israel has to say yes, otherwise, there will be no Palestinian state. Muslims and Arabs are obviously disgusted with this position, as am I.
2) Muslims being killed in Syria and Iraq. Q-Tip, I don't know what you're talking about if you're not being clear. When you say Muslims killing Muslims I'm think you're referring to the majority of the killings, not the minority.
Most Muslims who've died at the hand of the IS have been armed Syrians and armed Iraqis. As far as the Yazidis and Christians, we've already been over this, numerous times, and that is where I compared the situation to Nazi Germany. But again, without actually reading what I am saying you are attempting to align me with those of the Islamic State to try and discredit my viewpoint.
Again, it's transparent.
You've peddled the bogus argument that the ISIS rank and file/lower level leadership who actually commit those acts aren't really/primarily motivated by religious extremism/intolerance (that doesn't have shit to do with the U.S.), but rather by wanting to fix Palestine. So if we fixed that, they'd just wither. It's absurd.
Err, I've said numerous times.. We need to prevent radicalization. Either you do or don't speak English, but the word prevent does not mean fix or cure but to stop before it happens. Everyday there are hundreds of new IS recruits who are driven to extremism and jihad due to radicalizing effects they feel are outside of their control.
I'm not going to go over this again. How is it that you cannot understand this? To everyone in the thread: can you folks really not grasp this? That a change in American foreign policy in the region would mitigate the amount of people wanting to join groups like the Islamic State?
The lower ranks feel a sense of hopelessness. They are left with little to no options to improve the lives of Muslim people and feel compelled to do something about it. The Islamic State and groups like it offer an immediate solution. They do not start off as Islamic radicals, they get radicalized once they make the commitment to reach out and join these groups. They are brought in, taught Salafism (which most did not practice prior to joining), they are sworn into allegiance, and then they are carefully indoctrinated into the groups belief system.
I just, cannot see why this is so hard to understand.
The very first quote of yours in this thread identifies Palestine as the central motivating factor for the rank and file who join ISIS and AQ, to the point where we'd "disarm" those groups if we just satisfied them on that count. Even if you were correct, I don't think any solution acceptable to the U.S. or to Israel would satisfy those who are sufficiently radical to take up arms with ISIS/AQ anyway, so it's a rather moot point.
It's not a moot point. Again, your conclusion doesn't follow the premise. If you go look at the recruitment materials of the groups you've mentioned; if you actually listen to radical jihadists in Western and Middle Eastern nations you'd hear their arguments continually orbit the Palestinian issue. Again, you're not aware because you are not informed.
But to get back to your point; by mitigating that issue we would remove a major factor of radicalization among Arabs and Muslims in the region.
With respect to a solution that "Israel is willing to accept," well, that's the entire problem isn't it? Israel is not willing to accept a solution the Palestinians are. That's why many simply say the Two-State Solution is a joke and should be abandoned - but that's another issue.
But you're not correct anyway. It makes no logical sense for some guy whose primary motivation (to the point where he wouldn't fight otherwise) is "liberating Palestine", to go fight against other Muslims and religious minorities in northern Iraq for years. And like probably everyone else who participates in these threads, I've listened to tons of interviews with/reports on these guys, and "liberating Palestine" is simply not what they themselves identify as their primary motivations.
To be honest Q-Tip, I don't think you've ever listened to a Muslim discuss Islam or Islamic issues in the world. I'm pretty much going to call bullshit on that.
And again, if you go back to my original post on this, I clearly stated it was one of the primary motivating factors of those joining IS. Ask them what drives them and they'll tell you - and yes, they will mention Palestine. Just in this thread there are two videos in which Syrians mention Palestine as the primary example of the dehumanization of Muslims.
Lastly, the person joining IS and fighting in Iraq and Syria is fighting for the Islamic caliphate.
Does a Sunni man of Egyptian descent who goes and fights in Fallujah makes sense to you? Does a Saudi national fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan make sense to you? What about Qatari fighting in the hills and mountains of Mindanao?
For some reason you seem incapable of understanding the concept that Islamic people from everywhere will fight in Islamic countries for Islamic causes. They don't see the Palestinians as a separate people
in the same way you do, it's a more complex difference than that.
They'd likely agree that would be one of the goals of a unified Caliphate (and another would be spreading forcibly that Caliphate outside the Middle East), but the liberation of Palestine is not the primary reason they are fighting for that Caliphate in the first place. Their primary motivation is the idea of a strict religious Muslim Caliphate for its own sake.
"For it's own sake" is usually used by folks who really don't understand why something is happening and nor do they feel inclined to investigate it further.
Al-Baghdadi, in his own fucking words, does not say that they should practice his brand of Islam because he has the only usable interpretation of Islam; he says that his interpretation of Islam is the answer to the problems of everyday Muslims. Listen to IS members and their remarks - the State provides them with dignity and security and will liberate all Muslims under oppression of dictators and Zionists.
For whatever reason, you are being obtuse when it comes to this point. Frankly, I'm done arguing about it. I've already cited these individuals, directly, in previous posts in this thread. I've pretty much had it with this asinine argument.
Anyone here who thinks Palestine is not in the Top 3 issues among radical Muslims is pretty much an idiot.
So, given a choice to either believe what they say about their own motivations, (as well as what their own actions demonstrate), or to believe you, I choose to believe them.
Fucking idiot.
Here is the Fatwa from the Mufti in Saudi Arabia calling for jihad against Israel for the sake of the Palestinians (not because they are Jews, as this particular cleric recognizes Israel's existence).
To Proceed:
The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Verdicts in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, has followed ý with all sorrow and pain- what has occurred, and is still going on against our Muslim brethren in Palestine ý and specifically in Gaza. That which is [actions] of oppression, and killing of children, and women and old people! And [it is] transgression on that which is sacred [innocent], and the destruction of infrastructure and institutions, and the terrorizing of innocent people. And there is no doubt that this is a crime and oppression on the rights of the Palestinian nation.
And at this sorrowful event; it is an obligation on the Muslims to be with their Palestinian brethren, and to help and aid them, and to make an effort to lift the oppression against them ý through any means which is of their reach ý so as to actualize the Islamic bond, and the ties of 'Eeman.
Allaah The Exalted said:
"The believers are indeed brothers [in Islýmic religion]." (Al-Hujuraat: 10)
And He The Most Mighty, The Most Majestic said:
"The believers, men and women, are Auliyý' (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one anotherý" (At-Tawba : 71)
And The Prophet (sallahAllaahu alayhi wasallam) said :
"The believer to another believer is like the structure [like a wall] ; each part strengthens the other,' and then he co-enjoined his fingers." (Agreed upon)
And he (may Allaah's blessings and good mention be upon him) also said:
"The example of the believers in their relationship, and their love, and their having mercy upon each other ; is like the example of one body part to the rest of the body; if one part is affected then the whole body complains of fever and pain." (Agreed upon)
And he (may Allaah's blessings and good mention be upon him) also said:
"The Muslim is the brother of another Muslim; he does not oppress him, nor does he deceive him, nor does he give him up to the enemy, nor does he look down on him." (Narrated by Muslim)
And help comprises of many things ýaccording to the ability, and depending on the situations ý whether it is intellectually or physical [things], or whether it is from the general Muslims through wealth, and food, and medicine, and clothing, and other things. Or whether it is from the Islamic Arab nations through making it easy and possible that the aid reaches them, and by taking a sincere position in regards to their [the Palestinian Muslims] matter, and by supporting their case in the gatherings, and seminars, and the international conferences: And all of these are from the ways of co-operation upon good and piety ý which is something that is ordered- in the statement of The Exalted :
"Help you one another in virtue, righteousness and pietyý" (Al-Maaida : 2)
And also from those ways is: to direct sincere advice to them [the Muslims in Palestine], and to direct them to that which is of good and of benefit to them. And from the greatest of those is to make du'aa for them -at all times ý so that their tribulation is lifted, and their affliction is raised, and that their situation is rectified, and that their statements and actions become good.
Upon this, we also advise our Muslim brethren in Palestine to have fear of Allaah ý The Exalted- and to return to Him, just as we advise them to be united; upon the truth, and to leave off divisions and splitting up, and not to give a chance to the enemy ý who has taken advantage of it ý and will continue to use it in enmity and oppression.
And we also encourage and emphasize our brethren to take the causes which will lead to lifting the oppression directed at their land ý while having complete sincerity to Allaah The Exalted ý in [those and all other] actions, and to seek His pleasure, and to seek His assistance ý through righteous actions, and prayers, and consulting the scholars and people of wisdom; in all their matters ý indeed that is a way of being facilitated [to that which is good] and establishment.
Just as we call on to the intellectuals in the world and the international meetings; to have an open look at this catastrophe ý with a look of insight, intellect, and equality ý so that the Palestinian community can be given its rights. And so that the oppression be lifted from it: such that they live in a honourable life. And at the same time we thank all -the nations and individuals- who have initiated in aiding and helping them.
We ask Allaah by His Beautiful Names and His Lofty Attributes; that He lifts the despair on this Ummah, and that He strengthens its religion, and to raise its statement, and to aid His allies, and to disgrace His enemies -and to return back their plots against themselves- and to save the Muslims from their evil, Indeed He is the Patron, and the One who is Most Able of all that. And may His blessings and good mention be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and also his family and his companions and those who follow them upon good; upto the Last Day.
His eminence; the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia,
President of the Council of Senior Scholars,
Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Ibn 'Abdullaah Aal ash-Shaykh.
Member of Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Verdicts.
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This particular Fatwa raised over $250M in just a week and that money was donated to "groups fighting injustice." Those groups are mostly terrorist organizations.
You want to stop radical jihad,
help to resolve the conflicts in the region. If we're not willing or able to do so, then we should simply take a stance of non-alignment with all parties in the region.