Dion Waiters Traded

BimboColesHair said:

I ask that because all we hear is how Bradley Beal is a perfect off ball guard, has a pretty jumper, is Ray Allen's love child, etc. You never hear about him getting the chucker label from anyone like we see with Dion (you just did this in this thread to prove that for us). Yet he shot a lower percentage from floor than Dion last year, took more FGAs than Dion and was right around the same as Dion in the Per36 and Per100 Possessions FGAs, had a lower TS% than Dion, and the same exact eFG% as Dion. He also had a lower assist rate than Dion last year. Yet Dion is a chucker and Beal is hot shit at the SG position?

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The difference in perception is the difference between helping your team to a second round playoff exit and feuding with your back court mate whose talent held in higher regard than yours, on a 33 wins team.

Scholar said:

Then, you never really understood Bimbo's point. He was saying that since their numbers are very very similar, then they are either both chuckers, or both not chuckers. I really don't think Mr Coles believes either of them to be such. So, he'd rather people stop painting Dion in this matter when they don't do the same to Beal.

Btw, you are using the assisted stat very poorly. It doesn't mean what you think it does. It simply means someone else passed to them before the shot. The player could very well put up an ill advised shot (say a long 2) but, because it went in, it adds to his assisted totals because the ball was passed to him right before he shot. However, if say a wide open power forward was cutting to the basket at the time the pass was received, a second pass should have been made to that power forward. That is the higher percentage scoring opportunity.

If you get an offensive rebound and immediately put it back up and in, that is unassisted, but certainly the right play within the offense. If there is a clear path to the basket, players should take advantage of that. That is within the offense. There are certainly many other examples. Not every play has to be assisted for it to be the correct choice in an offensive scheme.

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I understood Bimbo's point. His (assuming he) question asked why, if they have basically the same stats, is Dion thought of as a chucker and Beal a future stud. He believes Dion is treated unfairly by outside observers. I explained why the statistics cited by Bimbo do not appropriately describe why one would be labeled a chucker and offered a better one. Jack Brickman came in and quibbled with the stat, and did not in any way address my explanation of why Beal is not considered a chucker.

I know exactly what the stat means. I also know you are cherry picking individual examples and then slyly hoping to prove that your anecdotes equal data. I don't disagree with each of your examples, but aggregate data does not lie when comparing two players at the same position over a season. Both players faced the situations you presented and others, and a pattern emerges over time. And in the aggregate, chuckers will see a lower percentage of their baskets assisted. I implore you to either show otherwise, or demonstrate a better way of statistical measurement.

As for my own opinion, I do not think Dion is one of the league leaders in chucking like many outsiders do, but he is certainly on the spectrum. I am slightly optimistic that he moves off of it this year, but I think it will take a couple months.

AmirT0 said:

The difference in perception is the difference between helping your team to a second round playoff exit and feuding with your back court mate whose talent held in higher regard than yours, on a 33 wins team.

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Forgive me if believing Ariza, Gortat, and Nene are better than any of the 3rd options the Cavs have had in the 2 years we've had Dion and Kyrie together. And if you still believe the "fued" shit, you haven't been paying attention. You put Dion on that Wizards team in Beal's place and they make it just as far.

And @NasstyNate I do not consider Beal a chucker in the least, nor do I think Dion is, obviously. And % of assisted FGs does little for me in the realm of what is considered a chucker, especially when the two best players in the game are assisted on 41.6% of their baskets and 47.2% of their baskets (and before you jump on the chance, I am not comparing Dion to LeBron or Durant at all). Some players are just better with the ball in their hands...that doesn't make them a chucker. Shooting a lot of shots at a low percentage with low assist metrics is the jumping off point for what I consider a chucker to be.

I think it's funny that, if Waiters had hit 3 or 4 more shots Friday, this thread would be vastly different.

stowfan said:

I think it's funny that, if Waiters had hit 3 or 4 more shots Friday, this thread would be vastly different.

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Agreed. There'd be a lot more Dion cheerleaders saying how right they were and penciling in 4/5 of the all star lineup

criticisms on Dion are usually in the context that he doesnt fit, shouldn't start or sometimes doesnt belong on the team.

then you have stuff like.. he is selfish or snt a team player. despite a massive amount of evidence to the contrary.

"dont think his skills fit" which skills? that he is a triple threat and an athletic defender who was often called on to guard guys 4 inches taller at tthe small forward position.

Dion is very versatile and full of raw talent. He is a contributor and under development.. funny someone mentioned demarr derozen. that guy has been under the radar because he plays in toronto and he doesnt deal with the scrutiny Dion does.

lots of myths about Dion. no need to have them on perpetuated.

i find it amusing that people respond to Dion criticisms with facts and figures undermining certain criticisms and they are labeled (emotionally biased)

stowfan said:

I think it's funny that, if Waiters had hit 3 or 4 more shots Friday, this thread would be vastly different.

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And equally funny that If he'd hit 3 or 4 less, some folks still would dismiss it.

The Human Q-Tip said:

And equally funny that If he'd hit 3 or 4 less, some folks still would dismiss it.

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Perhaps, but I'm sure you would help balance things out

There is nothing particularly wrong with eric gordon, except that he has not delivered against his pay scale in terms of winning teams. He has a lot of ability. I think he is Dion's floor.

My point is that Whether Dion gets to an all star level is pretty much between his ears. He has the physical gifts and the talent to get there, but only he can put that together, and honestly its a crap shoot as to which way it goes.

The point of the post was more that people get emotionally vested in whether or not Dion was the right pick, and I think that is why Dion is a flash point, as opposed to reasonable discussion...

Tornicade said:

criticisms on Dion are usually in the context that he doesnt fit, shouldn't start or sometimes doesnt belong on the team....
i find it amusing that people respond to Dion criticisms with facts and figures undermining certain criticisms and they are labeled (emotionally biased)

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Okay, here's some facts:

"I'd love to play point guard," Waiters said during his press conference on Friday.

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Problem is, the coach already said Delly was going to get the first crack at being the backup PG, and Blatt seems to like him. Which suggests that Dion really isn't going to get to play PG despite the fact that he'd "love" to. And when you add to that the claim by some fans of Dion that his best position might actually be point guard, it's not a huge stretch to suggest that a team that already has both a starting and backup PG may not be the best fit for a guy who'd love to play the point.

That's not saying he can't play for the Cavs, that he won't fit in, or that he can't be successful anyway. It's simply pointing out one fact regarding how his strengths and preferred roles fit with the Cavs needs. But I don't think the "fit" issue can really be answered until much later in the season, unless there is some sort of unexpected blow-up of some kind. There will be growing pains all around, and we won't know how it works out until the roles become more stabilized, and we can see who is comfortable with those roles, and who (if anyone), isn't.

Dion is going to have to find balance , he needs to understand when to keep the ball moving on the perimeter , I have noticed so far Kyrie will swing the ball, Lebron will swing, KLove will swing it but Waiters seems to immediately look for his shot. He has to trust the offense that he will get his touches and not have to settle for that two dribble step back jumper.

MH32246 said:

Dion is going to have to find balance , he needs to understand when to keep the ball moving on the perimeter , I have noticed so far Kyrie will swing the ball, Lebron will swing, KLove will swing it but Waiters seems to immediately look for his shot. He has to trust the offense that he will get his touches and not have to settle for that two dribble step back jumper.

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I swear I'm about to just stop coming into this thread....

HE TOOK THE STEP BACK JUMPER ONE TIME WHEN THE SHOT CLOCK WAS RUNNING DOWN AND THERE WAS NO MOVEMENT FROM HIS TEAMMATES! Why do so many people reference this shot when he shoots it so rarely?!

He's keeping the ball moving. He's hitting open guys. He's engaged defensively. And he only took 11 shots tonight, the vast majority of which were good, open looks.

Find something else to complain about. We won and Dion played well. Only thing I fault him for tonight was missing easy shots that he normally makes but shit happens every now and then.

The Human Q-Tip said:

Okay, here's some facts:
Problem is, the coach already said Delly was going to get the first crack at being the backup PG, and Blatt seems to like him. Which suggests that Dion really isn't going to get to play PG despite the fact that he'd "love" to. And when you add to that the claim by some fans of Dion that his best position might actually be point guard, it's not a huge stretch to suggest that a team that already has both a starting and backup PG may not be the best fit for a guy who'd love to play the point.

That's not saying he can't play for the Cavs, that he won't fit in, or that he can't be successful anyway. It's simply pointing out one fact regarding how his strengths and preferred roles fit with the Cavs needs. But I don't think the "fit" issue can really be answered until much later in the season, unless there is some sort of unexpected blow-up of some kind. There will be growing pains all around, and we won't know how it works out until the roles become more stabilized, and we can see who is comfortable with those roles, and who (if anyone), isn't.

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Your referring to a quote from September 27th When Training camp was just starting. Your interpretation is slightly off. look what you left out
"I'd love to play point guard," Waiters said during his press conference on Friday. "I would love the opportunity if coach gave me a shot at that, I would love to take on the full commitment to that because I think I could play the one also.
"I think a lot of people haven't seen me play (point guard)," Waiters said. "Over the time that I did play point guard I excelled."
If he was referring to the brief stint in March when Irving was out of the lineup with a biceps injury then he has a point. During that eight-game stretch, Waiters and Jack shared duties running the offense. Waiters averaged 5.1 assists and the Cavs went 4-4.

His role this season is still to be determined. Many have penciled him as the starter in the backcourt next to Irving. But training camp and the preseason will decide whether he's announced as starter on opening night. In the past, Waiters has been vocal about wanting to start. Not on Friday.

"It don't matter," he said. "As long as I'm out there I'm going to do whatever I have to do for this team."

The mantra has been about sacrificing individual numbers for the betterment of the team. No matter the role, Waiters will have to make the same adjustments that so many others on this new and improved roster will.

"I know the ball isn't going to be in my hands that much," he said. "So you have to find a way to impact the game. If it's not just scoring, probably on the defensive end also. Everybody's going to have to make adjustments."

Myth busted

Cashius X said:

I swear I'm about to just stop coming into this thread....

HE TOOK THE STEP BACK JUMPER ONE TIME WHEN THE SHOT CLOCK WAS RUNNING DOWN AND THERE WAS NO MOVEMENT FROM HIS TEAMMATES! Why do so many people reference this shot when he shoots it so rarely?!

He's keeping the ball moving. He's hitting open guys. He's engaged defensively. And he only took 11 shots tonight, the vast majority of which were good, open looks.

Find something else to complain about. We won and Dion played well. Only thing I fault him for tonight was missing easy shots that he normally makes but shit happens every now and then.

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When he penetrates yes he is getting guys open looks but he did the step back jumper multiple times tonight once at the top of the key in the second half and another time when Kevin Love was calling for it and had established position in the post and Dion was on the wing. I didn't say he played bad I just simple gave my opinion I see you're a big Waiters fan by your avi. But it was my honest opinion .

Some of y'all are too emotional. Like everyone else I don't mind the open shots, I don't mind him going at players he feels he has a mismatch against.
I do mind when he opts to shoot when Love has deep post position. If there's adequate time on the clock pass it to him. Other than that Do played well defensively. I have not been impressed with him offensively for 3 straight games. With age will come consistency