Dion Waiters Traded

[Pioneer10]

Such a polarizing player. I'm a fan of Dion but this idea that we have a very good idea if he's going to very good or very bad for this team from what we've seen is a bit loony. Based on what we've, he's just as likely to be just an average NBA quality SG which for the Cavs is probably good enough.

IMO, I'm a bit tired of the Wade comparison not only do I highly doubt he's going to be nearly as good as Wade was but also that Dion's game IMO as it matures is going to be significantly different then his (much more 3's since he's a better shooter and a lot less manic drives to the basket as he doesn't have the length or explosion of Wade). On the other hand, after slow starts he's been a productive player who has NBA caliber attributes (i.e. first step, strength) that should translate him to eat up minutes for NBA teams for a long time which is more then can be said of guys like Barnes whose career appear to be stalling a bit. Plus his numbers compare favorably to a guy like Beal

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Such a polarizing player. I'm a fan of Dion but this idea that we have a very good idea if he's going to very good or very bad for this team from what we've seen is a bit loony. Based on what we've, he's just as likely to be just an average NBA quality SG which for the Cavs is probably good enough.

It's funny, I wouldn't consider myself a fan of Dion but I may project him more optimistically than you do. I think he's got a much better chance of being a very good player than a very bad player, and a better than even shot of being above average, which I think he is already. Although that's qualified by the weakness of the SG position overall.

My issue is that I'm not confident that his particular skills/attitude are going to be maximized on a team where he's the 4th option. Especially where options 1-3 are all Top 15 or so in terms of offensive ability league-wide. It's more an issue of fit than talent/ability. It's not that I think he can't/won't be a net contributor on the Cavs -- I'm pretty confident he will. I just think that the Cavs aren't really capable of using him to his full advantage, which may cause some problems. If not within the team, then when it becomes times to re-sign him. I just think it's unlikely he will be worth as much to the Cavs as his talent (and ego) will dictate.

 

[Rich]

Why do people get so defensive when someone says something about Dion?

This is what boggles my mind. For some he's the only player on the team that should be immune from any criticism at all.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I ask that because all we hear is how Bradley Beal is a perfect off ball guard, has a pretty jumper, is Ray Allen's love child, etc. You never hear about him getting the chucker label from anyone like we see with Dion (you just did this in this thread to prove that for us). Yet he shot a lower percentage from floor than Dion last year, took more FGAs than Dion and was right around the same as Dion in the Per36 and Per100 Possessions FGAs, had a lower TS% than Dion, and the same exact eFG% as Dion. He also had a lower assist rate than Dion last year. Yet Dion is a chucker and Beal is hot shit at the SG position?

Beal being a chucker doesn't make Dion any better, or any worse. They're not linked in some weird SG zero-sum game.

 

[NasstyNate]

I ask that because all we hear is how Bradley Beal is a perfect off ball guard, has a pretty jumper, is Ray Allen's love child, etc. You never hear about him getting the chucker label from anyone like we see with Dion (you just did this in this thread to prove that for us). Yet he shot a lower percentage from floor than Dion last year, took more FGAs than Dion and was right around the same as Dion in the Per36 and Per100 Possessions FGAs, had a lower TS% than Dion, and the same exact eFG% as Dion. He also had a lower assist rate than Dion last year. Yet Dion is a chucker and Beal is hot shit at the SG position?

I don't think you know what a chucker is. A chucker is someone who does not operate within a team's offense and instead is out there to get his own. They take ill advised shots that are often contested, early in the shot clock, or are generally low percentage. None of the stats that you used illustrate a chucker, but rather, how good someone is at shooting. And volume shooting does not make one a chucker as long as it comes from within the offense. A much better stat is %assisted, or the percentage of makes that were assisted by a teammate.

63.6% of Beal's makes were assisted compared to 46.5% for Dion. So while Beal shot more, his shots came from within the offense. Ergo, Beal is nowhere close to a chucker and why you will never hear that he is.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Beal being a chucker doesn't make Dion any better, or any worse. They're not linked in some weird SG zero-sum game.

I don't think that was his point at all.

63.6% of Beal's makes were assisted compared to 46.5% for Dion. So while Beal shot more, his shots came from within the offense. Ergo, Beal is nowhere close to a chucker and why you will never hear that he is.

But that stat is a little misleading because Dion has much better handles than Beal does. Dion can create shots for himself that Beal cannot, and thus less of his shots are assisted.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I don't think that was his point at all.

Then why raise it at all in a comment directed towards someone who hadn't mentioned Beal?

 

[NasstyNate]

But that stat is a little misleading because Dion has much better handles than Beal does. Dion can create shots for himself that Beal cannot, and thus less of his shots are assisted.

You are supporting my argument. Beal does not rely on his handles and therefore plays within the offensive system, which is the opposite of a chucker.

 

[Jack Brickman]

You are supporting my argument. Beal does not rely on his handles and therefore plays within the offensive system, which is the opposite of a chucker.

I never said Beal was a chucker.

 

[OptimusPrime]

You are supporting my argument. Beal does not rely on his handles and therefore plays within the offensive system, which is the opposite of a chucker.

Beal relies on having shots created for him because he can't do it himself and has a pass-first PG to feed him. Has nothing to do with the "offensive system". Waiters was the creator for a bunch of D-league scrubs half the time and couldn't out "chuck" the starting PG the rest of the time.

 

[Captain S]

I don't think you know what a chucker is. A chucker is someone who does not operate within a team's offense and instead is out there to get his own. They take ill advised shots that are often contested, early in the shot clock, or are generally low percentage. None of the stats that you used illustrate a chucker, but rather, how good someone is at shooting. And volume shooting does not make one a chucker as long as it comes from within the offense. A much better stat is %assisted, or the percentage of makes that were assisted by a teammate.

63.6% of Beal's makes were assisted compared to 46.5% for Dion. So while Beal shot more, his shots came from within the offense. Ergo, Beal is nowhere close to a chucker and why you will never hear that he is.

That makes it even worse for beal

He's being spoon fed by wall and he still has worse efficiency than waiters

 

[NasstyNate]

I never said Beal was a chucker.

Well then I'm not really understanding your point considering that is the basis of the conversation between BimboColesHair and me.

 

[sjhughes]

This year will essentially determine the type of player/individual that dion is. He will have no other choice but to become a better all around team player. The attitude needs to stop, to sulking needs to stop and he needs to interact better with teammates on the court. I love his tenacity and desire to win but there are proper ways to handle that.

I am one of the Biggest Dion fans you will ever see and I am somewhat nervous for this season. I have very high expectations but this could truly be a make or break season for Dion. Here is to hoping he succeeds and the Cavs get us that much desired championship.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This year will essentially determine the type of player/individual that dion is. He will have no other choice but to become a better all around team player. The attitude needs to stop, to sulking needs to stop and he needs to interact better with teammates on the court. I love his tenacity and desire to win but there are proper ways to handle that.

I am one of the Biggest Dion fans you will ever see and I am somewhat nervous for this season. I have very high expectations but this could truly be a make or break season for Dion. Here is to hoping he succeeds and the Cavs get us that much desired championship.

Hater.

 

[Scholar]

Well then I'm not really understanding your point considering that is the basis of the conversation between BimboColesHair and me.

Then, you never really understood Bimbo's point. He was saying that since their numbers are very very similar, then they are either both chuckers, or both not chuckers. I really don't think Mr Coles believes either of them to be such. So, he'd rather people stop painting Dion in this matter when they don't do the same to Beal.

Btw, you are using the assisted stat very poorly. It doesn't mean what you think it does. It simply means someone else passed to them before the shot. The player could very well put up an ill advised shot (say a long 2) but, because it went in, it adds to his assisted totals because the ball was passed to him right before he shot. However, if say a wide open power forward was cutting to the basket at the time the pass was received, a second pass should have been made to that power forward. That is the higher percentage scoring opportunity.

If you get an offensive rebound and immediately put it back up and in, that is unassisted, but certainly the right play within the offense. If there is a clear path to the basket, players should take advantage of that. That is within the offense. There are certainly many other examples. Not every play has to be assisted for it to be the correct choice in an offensive scheme.