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Kyrie Irving

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Chris said:
Wait, is the argument who is the better offensive threat or who is the better point guard? Wall averages like 10 APG...but isn't even in the same stratosphere as Kyrie in terms of scoring.
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The better player/better offensive player. Fuck irrelevant position labels.
 
Rob said:
The better player/better offensive player. Fuck irrelevant position labels.
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Well, Wall is a better distributor (or "playmaker" I guess some people call it, though I dislike that term) by a long shot. Kyrie is a better offensive talent by about the same margin. So as you can see, it's kind of relevant. In this situation, I don't see how there is a wrong answer.
 
Yes. I would take Kyrie over Wall as well but there isn't that big of a difference between the two. Kyrie is a better scorer while Wall is a better facilitator. Also, I don't think we are seeing the best of Wall. Wittman is an awful coach. The plays he draws are just ridiculous. I am sure if Wizards hire a competent coach, Wall would be even better. Overall, I'll still have Kyrie over Wall because Kyrie has that gear where he can take over a game and just win it on his own.
 
Chris said:
Wait, is the argument who is the better offensive threat or who is the better point guard? Wall averages like 10 APG...but isn't even in the same stratosphere as Kyrie in terms of scoring.
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The argument is who is the better player. Kyrie all day, every day.
 
Chris said:
Well, Wall is a better distributor (or "playmaker" I guess some people call it, though I dislike that term) by a long shot. Kyrie is a better offensive talent by about the same margin. So as you can see, it's kind of relevant. In this situation, I don't see how there is a wrong answer.
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You described how they play. That is relevant. What is irrelevant is the "Point Guard" label that implies some archaic form of basketball. For example, Wall did not make his teammates better today. He didn't make anyone better, he sucked ass.

There is a wrong answer. The guy that can score at an elite level is always more valuable. Pure facilitators don't win Championships as the best player on their team. Elite scorers win Championships as the best player on their team. When was the last time a pure facilitator won a Championship as the best player on the team? CP3 has never come close. Nash never really came close. Kidd was a grandpa when he won. Was he the best player on the Nets when they lost in The Finals? Probably. But ultimately they lost because...they didn't have an elite scorer. Put people continue to be fascinated by facilitators and overrate them because of some strange unwritten "law" of what to do when the ball is in your hands.

John Wall still cannot shoot for shit. He's not Rondo bad, but he's bad. We saw that today and any good coach/team will scheme by forcing him into jumpshots. He'd shoot in the 30% range against the Spurs, for instance.

For the record, I thought Wall deserved to start in the ASG. He was better in the 1st half of the season.

I guess I just don't value facilitation as much as some, particularly when Kyrie isn't even being asked to do much of it on this team. The guys that can score always bring more to the table. You can grow as a facilitator (see Steph Curry) much easier than you can grow as a shooter/scorer.

Some will agree, some will disagree, and that's fine. Most have made up their mind on the matter. I just can't be stuck on some ancient thought of what a "Point Guard" is "supposed to be." Production is production. Kyrie produces more due to his scoring ability. While I don't think he's ahead of Wall by some huge margin (as an offensive player), the choice is pretty easy for me.
 
Chris said:
Well, Wall is a better distributor (or "playmaker" I guess some people call it, though I dislike that term) by a long shot. Kyrie is a better offensive talent by about the same margin. So as you can see, it's kind of relevant. In this situation, I don't see how there is a wrong answer.
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It's irrelevant depending on how you view each player. I've said many times, I don't view Kyrie as a point guard, I see him as a combo guard. So, to me, the comparison is irrelevant of "point guard". But, if we're saying point guard, in the traditional sense, yes, I think Wall is better.

But I don't view Kyrie as a point guard. If we're just going to take player, comparing say Wall to Klay Thompson, we wouldn't debate who is the better player maker, since both are different players. That's the same take I have with Kyrie and Wall.

That said, I think its too short-sided though to judge Wall simply on one game. I think he's damn good, I like him. But player to player, who I'd rather have, it's Kyrie. I think he's the better player between the two.
 
Rob said:
You described how they play. That is relevant. What is irrelevant is the "Point Guard" label that implies some archaic form of basketball. For example, Wall did not make his teammates better today. He didn't make anyone better, he sucked ass.

There is a wrong answer. The guy that can score at an elite level is always more valuable. Pure facilitators don't win Championships as the best player on their team. Elite scorers win Championships as the best player on their team. When was the last time a pure facilitator won a Championship as the best player on the team? CP3 has never come close. Nash never really came close. Kidd was a grandpa when he won. Was he the best player on the Nets when they lost in The Finals? Probably. But ultimately they lost because...they didn't have an elite scorer. Put people continue to be fascinated by facilitators and overrate them because of some strange unwritten "law" of what to do when the ball is in your hands.

John Wall still cannot shoot for shit. He's not Rondo bad, but he's bad. We saw that today and any good coach/team will scheme by forcing him into jumpshots. He'd shoot in the 30% range against the Spurs, for instance.

For the record, I thought Wall deserved to start in the ASG. He was better in the 1st half of the season.

I guess I just don't value facilitation as much as some, particularly when Kyrie isn't even being asked to do much of it on this team. The guys that can score always bring more to the table. You can grow as a facilitator (see Steph Curry) much easier than you can grow as a shooter/scorer.

Some will agree, some will disagree, and that's fine. Most have made up their mind on the matter. I just can't be stuck on some ancient thought of what a "Point Guard" is "supposed to be." Production is production. Kyrie produces more due to his scoring ability. While I don't think he's ahead of Wall by some huge margin (as an offensive player), the choice is pretty easy for me.
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I think you're jumping to conclusions watching Wall in one game.

If you don't think an elite ball distributor is nearly as valuable as an elite scorer, so be it. That's just a difference of opinion and I guess I can understand it. I agree that an elite distributor ala Chris Paul will rarely win a title as the best player on their team, at least historically (I'll get to this in a second). I said so as much back when we drafted Irving. Turns out, Irving is much more of an elite scoring machine and not much of a facilitator. As it happens, that fits in perfectly on this team, much more so for reasons I've gone over repeatedly. I'd take Kyrie on this team over Wall.

But in a vacuum? There is absolutely an argument to be made for John Wall being a better player. It's a subjective matter so no, there really is no "wrong" answer. I see you talking about elite scorers being able to win championships as the best player on the team but not elite facilitators. How many championships have been won with 6'3 combo guards as the best player on the team, out of curiosity? This why I don't like to use historical precedent as some sort of absolute proof. We see new things happen all the time, new types of players, and the game itself evolves over time.

I see someone else mentioned this too, but the Wizards have an awful coach, too. Just awful. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
 
godfather said:
The argument is who is the better player. Kyrie all day, every day.
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Because he's a better scorer?

But Wall excels far ahead of Irving in a pretty important area, too, as discussed. And is a better defender- we can throw this out as I honestly don't think he's a great defender at all, though, but it's worth mentioning seeing as Irving is a notoriously bad defender.

As I said above, if you think elite scoring>>>>>>elite distribution, then fair enough. I think they're both pretty damn important qualities.
 
How many championships have been won with 6'3 combo guards as the best player on the team, out of curiosity?
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There haven't been very many really good ones, to make that determination. It's a new era position. Kyrie Irving and Russell Westbrook are the only two guys to fit that description, that play at such a high level. Neither is even 30 years old yet!

I personally consider Steph a combo guard too, even though his passing and court vision is superior to Kyrie's, but to me he's more of a scorer, than a traditional point guard.

But maybe some consider him a point guard, I really don't though. But he's definitely better than Kyrie either way at this point.
 
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godfather said:
There's haven't been very many really good ones, to make that determination. It's a new era position. Kyrie Irving and Russell Westbrook are the only two guys to fit that description, that play at such a high level. Neither is even 30 years old yet!

I personally consider Steph a combo guard too, even though his passing and court vision is superior to Kyrie's, but to me he's more of a scorer, than a traditional point guard.

But maybe some consider him a point guard, I really don't though. But he's definitely better than Kyrie either way at this point.
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Yes, which is pretty much my point in that paragraph. :chuckle: I don't think using historical precedent is some way to prove one way or the other. New things are happening in the NBA all the time.

It's an interesting discussion. Much more interesting than the one we had back in the day about Dion Waiters being better than Bradley Beal.
 
Chris said:
Because he's a better scorer?

But Wall excels far ahead of Irving in a pretty important area, too, as discussed. And is a better defender- we can throw this out as I honestly don't think he's a great defender at all, though, but it's worth mentioning seeing as Irving is a notoriously bad defender.

As I said above, if you think elite scoring>>>>>>elite distribution, then fair enough. I think they're both pretty damn important qualities.
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No, I am just saying, comparing Wall's court vision, passing, to Irving's is irrelevant in the talk of who is better. If someone brought up the question, who is better LeBron James or Anthony Davis. Would someone go Anthony Davis, because he's a better rebounder? No, because they play different positions, that's all I meant.

If you think Wall's passing, court vision, and setting up his teammates make a greater impact than Kyrie's scoring, and what he does, that's fine, your opinion.

But I am saying we shouldn't compare them as if they play the same position, because they don't. Combo guard just isn't an official position.
 
godfather said:
No, I am just saying, comparing Wall's court vision, passing, to Irving's is irrelevant in the talk of who is better. If someone brought up the question, who is better LeBron James or Anthony Davis. Would someone go Anthony Davis, because he's a better rebounder? No, because they play different positions, that's all I meant.

If you think Wall's passing, court vision, and setting up his teammates make a greater impact than Kyrie's scoring, and what he does, that's fine, your opinion.

But I am saying we shouldn't compare them as if they play the same position, because they don't. Combo guard just isn't an official position.
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I'm not really sure; that's my point. I think you could argue it either way. Like I said, I like Irving for this team. But if this team was constructed a bit differently? Could see Wall being a better fit. I don't think it's absolute one way or the other. That's my stance.
 
warriorsz32 said:
I posted this in another thread but I'll say it again here... Kyrie will be known as unanimously as the best point guard in the East after the playoffs are over... Nice of Lowry and Wall to start it off with a shit show.
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why limit it to PG, he's the best guard in the east. The playoffs will showcase that.
 
Chris said:
I'm not really sure; that's my point. I think you could argue it either way. Like I said, I like Irving for this team. But if this team was constructed a bit differently? Could see Wall being a better fit. I don't think it's absolute one way or the other. That's my stance.
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Fair enough. But I think it's Irving. Remember, the Wizards team fits Wall perfectly too. Shooters out on the perimeter, especially one like Beal, good interior offense, a big man that's athletic, mobile, and can get a lot of buckets around the rim. The perfect storm for a pass first point guard.

You need the right team to complement your best players period. We did a horrible job doing that for Kyrie his first 3 years, that shouldn't be a blemish on him, when the front office didn't do him much of a service. Washington did a good job putting the right team around Wall.
 
godfather said:
Fair enough. But I think it's Irving. Remember, the Wizards team fits Wall perfectly too. Shooters out on the perimeter, especially on like Beat, good interior offense, a big man that's athletic, mobile, and can get a lot of buckets around the rim. The perfect storm for a pass first point guard.

You need the right team to compliment your best players period. We did a horrible job doing that for Kyrie his first 3 years, that shouldn't be a blemish on him, when the front office didn't do him much of a service. Washington did a good job putting the right team around Wall.
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Agreed- which is why he averaged 10 assists this year. That's...pretty freaking elite in that department. I think they're coached like shit. Should be a much better team. If they get Durant and a good coach, got damn. But that's off topic.
 
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