Kyrie Irving

Jon said:

Apparently you do, because you keep bringing it up?

from March 30th:

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Timing, JonFromVA. Timing. I'll be glad to engage you in never ending debates during the right time.. the day of his playoff debut isn't that. I don't know what you can't get about that, it seems obvious to me what I was saying.

You seem to derive no joy whatsoever from watching the Cavs play - for instance, in the last few minutes you just condescendingly educated someone on how "alas, superstars aren't made in the first round of the playoffs"... you just seem to exist solely to debate inane points. Whatever man, you do you. But just know that your timing sucks.

CosmoKramer said:

I'm shocked. Kyrie just about turned his first taste of playoff basketball into The Kyrie Irving Show, yet Jon isn't impressed.

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Who said I wasn't impressed?

I just don't see why 30 points plus 5 three-pointers would make Kyrie a superstar, any more than 20 & 5 makes Thomas the next Oscar.

CosmoKramer said:

Consider that the first act, can't wait to see your excuse when Kyrie's balling out in the Finals.

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What excuse? Is Kawhi Leonard a superstar based off his finals MVP last year?

brownsbuck6 said:

Timing, JonFromVA. Timing. I'll be glad to engage you in never ending debates during the right time.. the day of his playoff debut isn't that. I don't know what you can't get about that, it seems obvious to me what I was saying.

You seem to derive no joy whatsoever from watching the Cavs play - for instance, in the last few minutes you just condescendingly educated someone on how "alas, superstars aren't made in the first round of the playoffs"... you just seem to exist solely to debate inane points. Whatever man, you do you. But just know that your timing sucks.

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There's no such thing as a "never ending debate", unless you think I've been replying to my own posts.

If you want to celebrate Kyrie's performance ... go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you, except for some reason you'd rather take shots at me.

Jon said:

There's no such thing as a "never ending debate", unless you think I've been replying to my own posts.

If you want to celebrate Kyrie's performance ... go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you, except for some reason you'd rather take shots at me.

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Poor, innocent victim. As if you don't know how forums work and just how to tweak people to get them to respond to you. I'm far from blameless in this little tiff or whatever you want to call it, but at least I'm self aware enough to realize it.

All I want to do is bask in the glory of Kyrie's great first game, and I come in here to see Jon being such a downer. Can't you let us celebrate?

CosmoKramer makes a post about Kyrie's performance that in no way mentions you and you have to take it upon yourself to take it down. If you want to be the forum's debbiedowner then ok, but don't be surprised when people actually take shots at you.

Jon said:

Isiaih Thomas became the 3rd player in league history to put up 20 & 5 in their playoff debut (only James and Oscar had done so before).

Alas, superstars aren't made in the first round of the playoffs.

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Right, but nobody is saying "well, Kyrie was average this season, but NOW he is a superstar." Their argument is that Kyrie has deserved superstar status all year, and that this past game is more evidence to the point.
Now, with that said, I do not think Kyrie is a superstar yet. I think as his court vision improves, which it will, he will transform into a top-3 NBA player, or superstar. People forget that during AI's first few years in the NBA he was subject to the same criticism as Kyrie. But, like I think Kyrie will have, AI exploded in a 1-2 year period. If you don't think Kyrie improved this year you are insane. I'm not saying he will definitely become as good of a player as AI in his prime, but, I do think it is possible.

Ignore list. Heard the grumblings; now I'm seeing the act in real time. Take the sideshow back to wherever it was while the team was struggling.

Jon said:

Isiaih Thomas became the 3rd player in league history to put up 20 & 5 in their playoff debut (only James and Oscar had done so before).

Alas, superstars aren't made in the first round of the playoffs.

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The difference is that Kyrie already has displayed superstar-level talent during the regular season and All-Star/International play. The big question for him was whether his game would suffer under the pressure of the playoffs, where every possession counts and the defensive intensity is much higher.

What was so impressive to me about his performance was that he didn't get those numbers just by getting hot, and being fed as the "hot hand" by his teammates. He got his points exactly the same way he did in the regular season, showing patience and maturity, and letting the game come to him rather than trying to force something that wasn't there. And his defensive effort was there as well.

Dude played like a vet in his first-ever playoff game. And no, it isn't enough to anoint him as the Second Coming. But at his age, with that much pressure, his performance was pretty much all we could reasonably have hoped for given that LBJ put more emphasis on distributing than he did on scoring.

brownsbuck6 said:

I'm far from blameless in this little tiff or whatever you want to call it, but at least I'm self aware enough to realize it.

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lol!

So, you only deny trolling when you haven't been caught at it with a direct quote.

Check.

The Human Q-Tip said:

The difference is that Kyrie already has displayed superstar-level talent during the regular season and All-Star/International play. The big question for him was whether his game would suffer under the pressure of the playoffs, where every possession counts and the defensive intensity is much higher.

What was so impressive to me about his performance was that he didn't get those numbers just by getting hot, and being fed as the "hot hand" by his teammates. He got his points exactly the same way he did in the regular season, showing patience and maturity, and letting the game come to him rather than trying to force something that wasn't there. And his defensive effort was there as well.

Dude played like a vet in his first-ever playoff game. And no, it isn't enough to anoint him as the Second Coming. But at his age, with that much pressure, his performance was pretty much all we could reasonably have hoped for given that LBJ put more emphasis on distributing than he did on scoring.

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Well, Kyrie is a veteran, and I'm glad he didn't crumble, but we're talking the sub-.500 Celtics here, not the defending champs and he doesn't have to carry the weight of the team.

Is that a complaint? Or a knock on his game? No. Not at all. Just perspective.

Jon said:

lol!

So, you only deny trolling when you haven't been caught at it with a direct quote.

Check.

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Jon returns to the board, and so does his petty philosophizing.

Thankfully, Jon is now known for one of the most laughable posts in the history of this board. But what has made it even more laughable, is that Jon continues to pretend he didn't say it.

Jon, you've done this to yourself.

jking948 said:

Right, but nobody is saying "well, Kyrie was average this season, but NOW he is a superstar." Their argument is that Kyrie has deserved superstar status all year, and that this past game is more evidence to the point.

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Well, some people have been saying for years that Isaih Thomas was every bit as good as Kyrie. So, doesn't that argument work to Thomas's benefit as well?

jking948 said:

Now, with that said, I do not think Kyrie is a superstar yet. I think as his court vision improves, which it will, he will transform into a top-3 NBA player, or superstar. People forget that during AI's first few years in the NBA he was subject to the same criticism as Kyrie. But, like I think Kyrie will have, AI exploded in a 1-2 year period. If you don't think Kyrie improved this year you are insane. I'm not saying he will definitely become as good of a player as AI in his prime, but, I do think it is possible.

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Kyrie has improved this season - he is learning, but after 4 years in the league, I have more of a show-me attitude towards Kyrie and less of wait-back-and-watch attitude when it comes to his playmaking skills. As a scorer? The sky is still the limit for him, and I suppose that will make him a superstar to many ... but personally I've always had a very high standard for the term - and even becoming the best scorer in the league won't get my nod.

Jon said:

If you get it ... then why do you continue to argue something I've never said?

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I'm not sure I follow.

You did refer to him as a "Rich Man's Boobie Gibson," and you continue to support that statement today. So, just to be clear, I don't get that.

I disagree with the assertion and the comparison. I did when you made it just as I do now. I'm just not one of the posters that has a personal grievance with you. Again, I actually like most of your posts.

Jon said:

Everybody has agreed with what I did say.

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I can't seem to find a single person who openly agrees with you, actually. Let alone "everybody." This very last page (pg. 495) demonstrates that pretty succinctly that no one there agrees with you at all.

I'm pretty sure @CosmoKramer, @SpanishCavsfan , @jking948 , @The Human Q-Tip , @Rob , or anyone else you've thus far been quoted by or have quoted would agree with your sentiment so for.

I thought Chris might, but he clarified his position and made it perfectly clear it was distinct from your own - so I left that alone.

Thus, it's perfectly clear to me, you're on an island of 1. And again, that's why I asked, why do you think you have a superior vantage point than many of the rest of us...

Again, I'm not saying we're right because we're the majority; I'm asking you to clearly state your case - since you keep quoting others including myself - and just back it up with some level of concrete factual evidence.

Jon said:

It would have made no sense. At the time, Tony Parker already was widely considered a top-5 PG. How would it illustrate Kyrie's struggles at the time?

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Was that your only goal, to illustrate his struggles? Even while he was having a historic rookie season?

Why not actually make a fair comparison? Kyrie Irving is far more comparable to Tony Parker, in any season, than he is to Boobie Gibson.

Again, I don't get what you're trying to say or why you don't come to the same conclusion as I do.

Jon said:

As for Kyrie, here and now ... I'm afraid the discussion will never get beyond the fact that you (and others) are willing to ignore what is to me (and others)

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This seems like an attempt to establish a false equivalence. Who are the others that share you view?

Jon said:

the defining trait of a "point-guard" ... which is to run a team. He's a top guard in the NBA, not a top-PG. With any luck the importance of that difference will not be exposed in the playoffs this year.

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And this is based on what? Kyrie averaged more assists than Tony Parker last year. In fact, on average, Kyrie has averaged more assists over his career than Tony Parker did in his first 4 years.

I think it's a given that Irving is better in isolation, a better finisher, a better shooter, and a vastly superior ball-handler.

So with that said, you by your own statement, considered Tony Parker a "Top 5 PG in the NBA."

Yet Kyrie Irving can't even be considered a point guard, again by your own statements.

Thus, as far as I can tell, your argument makes no logical sense. It seems highly biased, and almost nonsensical. An example of that bias would be on this very page you, in error, corrected another poster saying that Kyrie "is a veteran", with emphasis no less, yet he just finished his 4th year and is still playing on a rookie contract.

I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, but again I ask if I am, what am I missing?

NoTitleTown said:

But what has made it even more laughable, is that Jon continues to pretend he didn't say it.

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Huh? I've never denied saying that a Rich Man's Boobie Gibson is not a top-5 pg, and so far nobody has disagreed with me.

Jon said:

Well, Kyrie is a veteran....

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Not of the playoffs he's not. And he played like he'd been there before -- a lot. Love had an awkward beginning, and JR is a vet to whom the pressure clearly got at some level with those fouls. Even LBJ took a bit to get comfortable.

It's obviously not conclusive, but it was impressive.

and I'm glad he didn't crumble, but we're talking the sub-.500 Celtics here, not the defending champs and he doesn't have to carry the weight of the team.

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Actually, he kind of did have to carry the weight of the team. He was the only starter to shoot .500 or better, scored more points than any two starters not named LBJ and Love combined, and not exactly a game where we coasted wire to wire. They were a hot team coming into the playoffs, and Kyrie stayed on a completely even keel.

Of course there are going to be games against better teams where he is shut down, or has a bad game. But it's not the result that was so impressive. It was his ice-cold demeanor, and absolutely no hint that the stage was too big for him. That was a legitimate worry for us coming into his very first playoff appearances.

Is that a complaint? Or a knock on his game? No. Not at all. Just perspective.

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Right. Which most other people who post here have as well.