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Shootouts and explosions in Paris

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Huh? I have never said I oppose significant tightening of the border. Not once.

I think you want the 2016 election thread?

No, I want the ISIS thread.

All I have said is that we shouldn't automatically refuse the refugees. I don't know the answer but I know rejecting an young orphan from Syria sure doesn't seem right.

Oh, if the only people we're accepting from Syria are "young orphans", that's fine. Although I'm not sure its really a good idea to take orphans from another country with a different language and culture, and just dump them here. But if there are parents willing to foster or adopt, that's great.
 
I think the exact opposite is true.

For some reason, when proponents of this idea hear the phrase "radical Islam", they eliminate the word "radical" and hear only "Islam." It's a really strange phenomenon, and I'm not sure why otherwise sharp people buy into it. The word "radical" is a modifier that clearly means the phrase doesn't apply to all of Islam. It's English 101. And yet, some people keep insisting that's what it means -- that if you condemn "radical Islam", you're really condemning all of Islam. That's....stooopid.

Which leads to why I think this reasoning is exactly backwards. By refusing to recognize the significance of the modifier "radical", you are putting all Muslims in the same category. And you've got a crapload of people around the world who have enough common sense to see that there is an Islamic component (radical, twisted, or whatever) to this wave of terrorism and oppression. But by refusing to recognize that publicly, it appears (and I think is factually true) that proponents of that idea are denying reality. So when you deny something that is obvious to the vast majority of people, they don't trust you.

This is a clash of civilizations, and I don't know why some folks are so fired up about denying it. It should be good people of all religions against these radical Islamic freaks. When King Abdullah speaks out the way he does, Westerners rally around that and recognize the existence of a strong, brave, moderate Muslim. By being so willing to call out the bad guys for what they are, he separates himself from them. Is it not good to have separation between moderate and radical Muslims?
I don't think that's the main point of the article, though. Lynch's thesis is that, since Obama took office, the "us vs. them" rhetoric has drastically increased. And, moreover, that creates a "clash of civilizations" argument (to be fair, here, I feel Huntington's thesis is constantly misrepresented for political motive, but that's another story), which is problematic. To this end, I think the clash that you are talking about (more faithful to Huntington's thesis) is different than Lynch's (he is discussing Bernard Lewis' view).

Lynch is contending that the rhetoric creates a clash between Muslims and the West, not "good" versus "bad" Muslims.

He did mention discussion of radical vs. regular Islam, and to that I give your point credit, but that's not the main purpose of the article. Nonetheless, I'll engage.

From an academic standpoint, the term is problematic because we have more descriptive terms. Primarily "Political Islam," "Militant Islam," and "Islamism." So to that end, I would never use the phrase "radical Islam" in my work.

But I think we both know that is not the crux of the debate. I'd imagine the frustration is why Hillary won't use the term "radical Islam." And to this end, I'm really not sure I have an answer. Perhaps someone who is more attuned to the sociocultural aspects could chime in with the rationale. I'd say the biggest problem, and Lynch points this out, is that in the intensified political arena, associating these terrorist attacks with Islam creates more problems than solutions.

A few pages back I posted a video of a debate with the title "Is Islam Dominated By Radicals?" The side arguing the affirmative posited that, while the grand majority of Muslims are not radical, the power-centers of religion in both religious and political spheres are radical. The side negating the resolution, though, contended that, at most, 10% of people who identify as Muslim are Islamists, and significantly less than that are "jihadists."

My biggest takeaway from the debate is that terms like "radical Islam" are vague as all hell and that is an analytical problem. To which some would respond that my tower is moldy. I'll respond by saying "the view, looking past the ivory, is so worth it."
 
This is a fantastic article! Some fucking ally.

http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/23221/turkey-could-cut-off-islamic-state’s-supply-lines.n

In the wake of the murderous attacks in Paris, we can expect western heads of state to do what they always do in such circumstances: declare total and unremitting war on those who brought it about. They don’t actually mean it. They’ve had the means to uproot and destroy Islamic State within their hands for over a year now. They’ve simply refused to make use of it. In fact, as the world watched leaders making statements of implacable resolve at the G20 summit in Antalaya, these same leaders are hobnobbing with Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, a man whose tacit political, economic, and even military support contributed to ISIS’ ability to perpetrate the atrocities in Paris, not to mention an endless stream of atrocities inside the Middle East.

How could ISIS be eliminated? In the region, everyone knows. All it would really take would be to unleash the largely Kurdish forces of the YPG (Democratic Union party) in Syria, and PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ party) guerillas in Iraq and Turkey. These are, currently, the main forces actually fighting ISIS on the ground. They have proved extraordinarily militarily effective and oppose every aspect of ISIS’ reactionary ideology.

But instead, YPG-controlled territory in Syria finds itself placed under a total embargo by Turkey, and PKK forces are under continual bombardment by the Turkish air force. Not only has Erdoğan done almost everything he can to cripple the forces actually fighting ISIS; there is considerable evidence that his government has been at least tacitly aiding ISIS itself.

It might seem outrageous to suggest that a NATO member like Turkey would in any way support an organization that murders western civilians in cold blood. That would be like a NATO member supporting al-Qaida. But in fact there is reason to believe that Erdoğan’s government does support the Syrian branch of al-Qaida (Jabhat al-Nusra) too, along with any number of other rebel groups that share its conservative Islamist ideology. The Institute for the Study of Human Rights at Columbia University has compiled a long list of evidence of Turkish support for ISIS in Syria.

And then there are Erdoğan’s actual, stated positions. Back in August, the YPG, fresh from their victories in Kobani and Gire Spi, were poised to seize Jarablus, the last ISIS-held town on the Turkish border that the terror organization had been using to resupply its capital in Raqqa with weapons, materials, and recruits—ISIS supply lines pass directly through Turkey.

Commentators predicted that with Jarablus gone, Raqqa would soon follow. Erdoğan reacted by declaring Jarablus a “red line”: if the Kurds attacked, his forces would intervene militarily—against the YPG. So Jarablus remains in terrorist hands to this day, under de facto Turkish military protection.

How has Erdoğan got away with this? Mainly by claiming those fighting ISIS are “terrorists” themselves. It is true that the PKK did fight a sometimes ugly guerilla war with Turkey in the 1990s, which resulted in it being placed on the international terror list. For the last ten years, however, it has completely shifted strategy, renouncing separatism and adopting a strict policy of never harming civilians. The PKK was responsible for rescuing thousands of Yazidi civilians threatened with genocide by ISIS in 2014, and its sister organization, the YPG, of protecting Christian communities in Syria as well. Their strategy focuses on pursuing peace talks with the government, while encouraging local democratic autonomy in Kurdish areas under the aegis of the HDP, originally a nationalist political party, which has reinvented itself as a voice of a pan-Turkish democratic left.

They have proved extraordinarily militarily effective and with their embrace of grassroots democracy and women’s rights, oppose every aspect of ISIS’ reactionary ideology. In June, HDP success at the polls denied Erdoğan his parliamentary majority. Erdoğan’s response was ingenious. He called for new elections, declared he was “going to war” with ISIS, made one token symbolic attack on them and then proceeded to unleash the full force of his military against PKK forces in Turkey and Iraq, while denouncing the HDP as “terrorist supporters” for their association with them.

There followed a series of increasingly bloody terrorist bombings inside Turkey—in the cities of Diyarbakir, Suruc, and, finally, Ankara—attacks attributed to ISIS but which, for some mysterious reason, only ever seemed to target civilian activists associated with the HDP. Victims have repeatedly reported police preventing ambulances evacuating the wounded, or even opening fire on survivors with tear gas.

As a result, the HDP gave up even holding political rallies in the weeks leading up to new elections in November for fear of mass murder, and enough HDP voters failed to show up at the polls that Erdoğan’s party secured a majority in parliament.

The exact relationship between Erdoğan’s government and ISIS may be subject to debate; but of some things we can be relatively certain. Had Turkey placed the same kind of absolute blockade on ISIS territories as they did on Kurdish-held parts of Syria, let alone shown the same sort of “benign neglect” towards the PKK and YPG that they have been offering to ISIS, that blood-stained “caliphate” would long since have collapsed—and arguably, the Paris attacks may never have happened. And if Turkey were to do the same today, ISIS would probably collapse in a matter of months. Yet has a single western leader called on Erdoğan to do this?

The next time you hear one of those politicians declaring the need to crack down on civil liberties or immigrant rights because of the need for absolute “war” against terrorism, bear all this in mind. Their resolve is exactly as “absolute” as it is politically convenient. Turkey, after all, is a “strategic ally.” So after their declaration, they are likely to head off to share a friendly cup of tea with the very man who makes it possible for ISIS to continue to exist.
 
I don't think that's the main point of the article, though. Lynch's thesis is that, since Obama took office, the "us vs. them" rhetoric has drastically increased. And, moreover, that creates a "clash of civilizations" argument (to be fair, here, I feel Huntington's thesis is constantly misrepresented for political motive, but that's another story), which is problematic. To this end, I think the clash that you are talking about (more faithful to Huntington's thesis) is different than Lynch's (he is discussing Bernard Lewis' view).

Lynch is contending that the rhetoric creates a clash between Muslims and the West, not "good" versus "bad" Muslims.

He did mention discussion of radical vs. regular Islam, and to that I give your point credit, but that's not the main purpose of the article. Nonetheless, I'll engage.

From an academic standpoint, the term is problematic because we have more descriptive terms. Primarily "Political Islam," "Militant Islam," and "Islamism." So to that end, I would never use the phrase "radical Islam" in my work.

But I think we both know that is not the crux of the debate. I'd imagine the frustration is why Hillary won't use the term "radical Islam." And to this end, I'm really not sure I have an answer. Perhaps someone who is more attuned to the sociocultural aspects could chime in with the rationale. I'd say the biggest problem, and Lynch points this out, is that in the intensified political arena, associating these terrorist attacks with Islam creates more problems than solutions.

A few pages back I posted a video of a debate with the title "Is Islam Dominated By Radicals?" The side arguing the affirmative posited that, while the grand majority of Muslims are not radical, the power-centers of religion in both religious and political spheres are radical. The side negating the resolution, though, contended that, at most, 10% of people who identify as Muslim are Islamists, and significantly less than that are "jihadists."

My biggest takeaway from the debate is that terms like "radical Islam" are vague as all hell and that is an analytical problem. To which some would respond that my tower is moldy. I'll respond by saying "the view, looking past the ivory, is so worth it."

I just went off what Lynch said in his article. The first thing he did was lump together Trump's stupidity, which is pretty close to a condemnation of Islam in general, with Rubio's use of "radical Islam". Those are two different things.

And second, I think the correct point was right in front of his face, and he simply missed it. Here's what he said specifically early in that article, when he is lauding Bush:

A second strand is the absence of George W. Bush. For all his other foreign policy struggles, Bush was staunchly opposed to the demonization of Islam, and frequently argued — as Hillary Clinton does today — that America was not at war with Islam. He understood the importance of denying the al-Qaeda narrative of a clash of civilizations. Bush’s stance acted as a check on the anti-Islamic impulses of the right wing base.

What Lynch rather amazingly ignores is that Bush did use the phrase "radical Islam", and he used it repeatedly. But he also said -- as virtually every Republican using the phrase also has said -- that it is not all of Islam. And I think this buttresses my point -- when we had a President who was willing to call a spade a spade, people appreciated his honesty and recognition of the problem. He got it, and by him drawing a distinction between the moderate and radical strain, we could too. Lynch then continued by talking about Obama:

That obstacle has long since passed from the scene. President Obama’s invocation of the same themes invites the opposite response. The right wing now can be unified against this rhetoric, without Bush to restrain them.

What Lynch ignores is that Obama is not using the same language as Bush. How can Lynch possibly not even mention that difference in the context of his discussion. He's obstinately refusing to use the term his predecessor used, and which most people understand as only condemning a radical element within Islam.

As to the specific use of the phrase, you're talking about it in a purely academic context where the number of angels dancing on that pinhead may matter. But the rest of us, I think, understand it to mean a version of Islam that presents a threat of violence to non-believers. What it doesn't include are all the ordinary Muslims who just go about living their lives without bothering other people in the name of religion.
 
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I just went off what Lynch said in his article. The first thing he did was lump together Trump's stupidity, which is pretty close to a condemnation of Islam in general, with Rubio's use of "radical Islam". Those are two different things.

I agree they are two different things, but, I think he was more referencing Rubio's Nazi analogy, not just his claim of radical Islam.

And second, I think the correct point was right in front of his face, and he simply missed it. Here's what he said specifically early in that article, when he is lauding Bush:

A second strand is the absence of George W. Bush. For all his other foreign policy struggles, Bush was staunchly opposed to the demonization of Islam, and frequently argued — as Hillary Clinton does today — that America was not at war with Islam. He understood the importance of denying the al-Qaeda narrative of a clash of civilizations. Bush’s stance acted as a check on the anti-Islamic impulses of the right wing base.

What Lynch rather amazingly ignores is that Bush did use the phrase "radical Islam", and he used it repeatedly. But he also said -- as virtually every Republican using the phrase also has said -- that it is not all of Islam. And I think this buttresses my point -- when we had a President who was willing to call a spade a spade, people appreciated his honesty and recognition of the problem. He got it, and by him drawing a distinction between the moderate and radical strain, we could too. Lynch then continued by talking about Obama:[/QUOTE]

And to some degree I think that is a fair critique. Again though, what Lynch means by "clash of civilization" and what you are referring to are different. You are referencing Huntington's thesis while Lynch is referring to Bernard Lewis'. What he's getting at is, by engaging in the rhetorical "clash," politicians create a self-fulfilling prophecy by engaging in bothering.

What Lynch ignores is that Obama is not using the same language as Bush. How can Lynch possibly not even mention that difference in the context of his discussion. He's obstinately refusing to use the term his predecessor used, and which most people understand as only condemning a radical element within Islam.

The difference in their speeches aren't terminology-focused, but content-wise. Obama's Cairo Speech was the equivalent of saying, "Bush fought you guys with guns, we're going to with hugs." The honest answer is probably somewhere more in the middle. Also, Obama's weapon-sending and Israel-aid contradict major aims of his Cairo speech.

As to the specific use of the phrase, you're talking about it in a purely academic context where the number of angels dancing on that pinhead may matter. But the rest of us, I think, understand it to mean a version of Islam that presents a threat of violence to non-believers. What it doesn't include are all the ordinary Muslims who just go about living their lives without bothering other people in the name of religion.
I admitted I was approaching it as an academic in my previous post. I also said I'd have a tough time not. But, playing Devil's Advocate, this thread seems to make pretty clear everyone's definitions of radical Islam are not the same. I've seen people in this thread arguing: all of Islam is radical, none of Islam is radical, and parts of Islam encourage radicalism, but the majority does not.
 
I should add that I think recognizing that there is a religious component to this terrorism is important not just in terms of public reaction, but in terms of policy.

There is one view -- which I think the Administration holds and is demonstrated by its word choice -- that this terrorism is just a consequence of political and economic factors. Islam just happens to be a convenient label that the radicals slapped on it for the sake of convenience, and if they didn't have that excuse they'd use another. Under that view, the religious aspect is irrelevant to a proper understanding of, and combatting of, the problem. So, the approach to combatting it is "we need to make sure there are jobs for these people."

The other view is that Islamic beliefs -- twisted though they may be -- are intrisinic to the movement. The appeal/strength of those beliefs are affected by political/economic factors, but the malignancy of the beliefs themselves are of particular importance as well. Therefore, the problem must be addressed from that perspective as well. And you could characterize it as an ideological as much as a religious set of beliefs, but the key point is those beliefs are the primary cause of those actions, not simply a convenient label.

tl;dr: The Obama Adminstration views this primarily as an economic problem, and the other side views it primarily as an ideological/religious one.
 
I admitted I was approaching it as an academic in my previous post. I also said I'd have a tough time not. But, playing Devil's Advocate, this thread seems to make pretty clear everyone's definitions of radical Islam are not the same. I've seen people in this thread arguing: all of Islam is radical, none of Islam is radical, and parts of Islam encourage radicalism, but the majority does not.

Someone who argues that all of Islam is radical is siding with, well, Trump? And isn't drawing a distinction at all.

The rest of us are with Bush (in terms of how he views it) and others, and we do draw a distinction. The exact definitions may be idiosyncratic, but the point is there is a utility to the distinction.
 
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I admitted I was approaching it as an academic in my previous post. I also said I'd have a tough time not. But, playing Devil's Advocate, this thread seems to make pretty clear everyone's definitions of radical Islam are not the same. I've seen people in this thread arguing: all of Islam is radical, none of Islam is radical, and parts of Islam encourage radicalism, but the majority does not.

Just to be clear; Q-Tip state on this page that it's "only radical elements of Islam" but then in the conclusion of this same statement stated that "this is a conflict between civilizations."

Unless "radical Islam" constitutes a civilization onto itself, it seems pretty clear why there are so many folks who are hesitant to play into this narrative that "(predicate) + Islam" is somehow to blame.

Simply put, even on this page, even within the same poster's views, you can see the conflation between "radicalism" and an entire "civilization" and that we are in conflict with both.
 
Hostage situation at a hotel in Mali. Three dead (one French, two Malians). I guess they were holding some kind of diplomatic conference so lots of internationals were held hostage including American, French, Chinese, etc. American/French/Mali soldiers with the counterassault, some people evacauted.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/africa/mali-shooting/index.html

I read on another article that an al Qaeda affiliatory is taking "credit".

27 dead in Mali
 
Where is the evidence that this was "planted" as opposed to something that was actually used? And at this point, why does it even matter? They have confirmed via fingerprints that the dead terrorist actually did enter Greece as a refugee. So whether the passport was planted or not, the refugee/terrorist connection was confirmed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/16/us-france-shooting-bomber-greece-idUSKCN0T50U420151116

And whatever you may claim ISIS wants with respect to the U.S., it is inarguable that the masses of refugees flooding Europe are being screened very poorly, if at all. And that ISIS is using that flood to insert terrorist cells into Europe.


Planting was a poor choice of words, and misleading on my part. The documents were certainly forged, as duplicates have been found with everything the same save the picture. There was thought and meaning behind their choice to use a Syrian passport, specifically. It's clearly a good avenue when there isn't ample time to screen and monitor them over time. And it sends a message that Syrian refugees are dangerous, influencing every party to get Syrians to return back to their clutches.

That shouldn't affect why we should or should not take refugees, the circumstances are different. We are doing extensive screening and would have easily identified these terrorists if they tried to come here by that means. There are easier paths to getting here, meaning they're likely here already. We've apprehended over 60 that got here by other means. We need to find them and stop them as we've been able to so far with our advanced surveillance. And it's possible that Syrian refugees can be helpful in finding them if we are willing to trust and engage them.
 
So instead of looking at what happened to Japanese Americans in WW II as the disgrace it is and something to learn from, apparently we have politicians who actually view it as inspiration?


Washington (CNN)One day, when he was 5 years old, actor George Takei's parents woke him and his baby sister up very early in the morning. They hurriedly dressed them, and told them to wait in the living room.

"We were gazing out the front window and we saw American soldiers with bayonets on their rifle march up our driveway, two of them, stomp up the front porch and with their firsts banged on the front door," Takei said, in an interview with CNN's Brooke Baldwin.

"My father answered it, and literally at gunpoint, we were ordered out of our home," he said.

That was Los Angeles in 1942. Takei's family was taken from their home to the horse stables of a racetrack, where they were housed before the internment camps were built. The stalls were ripe with the scent of horse manure.

For a young boy, it was kind of fun to sleep where the horses slept.

"But for my parents, it was degrading. It was debasing, it was painful, and that was just the beginning of that whole experience," said Takei.

Takei is known for playing Mr. Sulu on the original "Star Trek." He is now on Broadway starring in "Allegiance," a musical based on the internment camps.

George Takei: I can still remember the barbed wire

The ugly chapter of U.S. history resurfaced this week, when the mayor of Roanoke, Virginia, used the internment of Japanese-Americans to justify rejecting settlement of Syrian refugees.

"I'm reminded that President Franklin D. Roosevelt felt compelled to sequester Japanese foreign nationals after the bombing of Pearl Harbor and it appears that the threat of harm to America from ISIS now is just as real and serious as that from our enemies then," Democratic Mayor David Bowers said in a statement Wednesday.

Takei responded on Facebook, where he has more than nine million followers.

"If you are attempting to compare the actual threat of harm from the 120,000 of us who were interned then to the Syrian situation now, the simple answer is this: There was no threat. We loved America. We were decent, honest, hard-working folks. Tens of thousands of lives were ruined, over nothing," he wrote.

The internment happened because there "was lack of political leadership. Political leadership failed. And the same thing is happening now," Takei told CNN. The actor said Bowers showed a "galling lack of compassion" for people fleeing terrorists.

Reps. Mark Takano and Mike Honda, both Democrats from California, also criticized the Roanoke mayor's comparison.

"Can't believe this needs clarifying, but the internment of Japanese-Americans (including my parents) was not a model policy," Takano wrote on Twitter.

"I am outraged by reports of elected officials calling for Syrian Americans to be rounded up and interned," wrote Honda, who was himself raised in an internment camp.​

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/20/enter...ugees-japanese-american-internment/index.html
 
Planting was a poor choice of words, and misleading on my part. The documents were certainly forged, as duplicates have been found with everything the same save the picture. There was thought and meaning behind their choice to use a Syrian passport, specifically. It's clearly a good avenue when there isn't ample time to screen and monitor them over time.

Uh, right. But all you just did is confirm that Europe cannot properly screen and monitor Syrian refugees. Regardless of whether or not ISIS is using that fact for propaganda, it remains true.

And it sends a message that Syrian refugees are dangerous, influencing every party to get Syrians to return back to their clutches.

Buy since you're stated that the Syrian refugees cannot properly be screened, and that ISIS is using that fact to infiltrate fighters, then the message that admitting those refugees is dangerous is true.

That shouldn't affect why we should or should not take refugees, the circumstances are different. We are doing extensive screening and would have easily identified these terrorists if they tried to come here by that means.

By "we", I assume you mean the U.S. specifically. But do you realize you've also made the perfct argument as to why Europe should slam on the brakes hard?

As for whether we'd have caught them, I certainly grant you that we'd have beenore likely to catch them than are the Euros. But there are two caveats to that:

First, the statistics that have been offered so far in terms of admitting Syrian refugees cover a period when very few have been admitted, over a limited period, and very slowly. Whether it is possible to maintain the same level of screening over the ling haul, when the flow is increased more than tenfold is a very important question.

Second, i do agree that the effort being expended to vet each Syrian refugee is more than the effort we expend to vet an immigrant entering otherwise.

However, I honestly am bothered by the FBI director's testimony saying that no matter how hard they vet them, we just don't have adequate data from Syria. We may be putting in more effort, and taking much more time, but ultimately, the result may be much less certain.

There are easier paths to getting here...

Perhaps less time-consuming, but what's the likelihood of getting caught? If someone comes in on a Syrian passport, we don't have the cooperation of the Syrian government, or access to their records. That's something that's not true of many other immigrants coming into the country even if the process is much faster.
 
This is a great interview with Assad and I gotta say that Assad makes complete sense and seems grounded. These "moderate" rebels aren't moderate at all.

 
In my view, there are crazies in every religion. I bet there are Christians that would misinterpret parts of the Bible and do similar things to these terrorists if they could get support.

The difference is that the U.S. has made it easy for the Muslim radicals to get support. They make recruiting a piece of cake by killing off their family members, bombing their homes, starving them with sanctions, propping up brutal regimes. Then they also send them money and arms either directly or through other countries.
 

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