Racial Tension in the U.S.

Thelorn said:

I've also lived in poor a poor neighborhood in Paradise, Nevada the ass cracks of the vegas strip, I got harassed and searched for no reason at times, and I'm white. The "majority" of police in those areas don't care about race they see everyone as poor citizens who can and may do anything compared to someone who's financially more well. The one's who are high/acting strange/resisting they're going to be on full no fuck around mode. Do I agree with them shooting everyone every time something hits the fan? No...But I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be in their shoes for a million a year.

As for the rest, you're comparing poor neighborhoods to one of the best colleges in the world, of course they police the area's in downtown Columbus different then say Hilltop or Chicago. It's two different worlds, two different things going on, one is students going to school, the other is people struggling to live day to day. You can see where the difference in mind sets of said individuals in those situations can be different right? And how one may have them more alert then the other?

Do I think cops would shoot any race (black,white,mexican,asian,mixed) high on PCP wielding a knife at gun point during night in the middle of the road in poor neighborhoods? Yes
Do I think cops would shoot any race high on PCP wielding a knife at gun point during the night on OSU campus in the middle of the high street? Yes
Do I think cops would shoot any race just drunk on OSU campus in the middle of high street at night. No, if they are, they hide it great

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Hey man, I'm a white guy who has been hassled by police as well, and that's not really the point I'm trying to make here. I'm trying to point out the differences in how different areas are policed. You point out that cops are going to have different fears in lower income neighborhoods and may have to be on a higher alert, I get that too. But let's look at what I bolded: Would any race of person in any neighborhood potentially be shot in that situation? Perhaps. But would a white person in a middle class/upper class neighborhood in that situation get 16 shots, 15 of them coming after they have been immobilized? I don't think so. THAT is the problem.

Yes, I'm comparing how poor neighborhoods and middle class neighborhoods are policed, because that is where the resentment comes in. Yes, different areas have to be policed differently, but I've seen both sides of it. I've seen people in middle class neighborhoods mess up and break the law, and get Officer McFriendly ready to Protect and Serve on behalf of the Tax payer. Poor neighborhoods? They can come down with the authority of an occupying force and restore order by any means necessary. If you're a black teen dealing with the occupying force every single day, how is that going to make you feel?

There's so much I could get into on this subject, but I'm just going to leave it alone and reference something my Grandfather told me, since I feel like it really summed up these situations nicely. He recently passed, but my grandfather was a WWII vet and also served as a local police officer for 10 years of his life. When the Baltimore Riots were going on we happened to be watching the news together in his nursing home, and since he was a pretty conservative and blunt guy I expected him to condemn the violence/support the officers/etc.....and he shocked me because what he said was "When those people feel like local police officers don't work for them, then cops have failed at their job." Couldn't be more right.

gourimoko said:

My only problem with any of this is why do some everyday White people have a problem with BLM?

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My guess is because their only real exposure to BLM is from the media. The first time the media shows people BLM it's a nice peaceful march and i'd guess only a small percentage of white people had an issue with it. Why did the few have an issue? Probably because they are racists. What happens next? The media isn't going to continue to show every peaceful BLM march. Why? It's boring. So after the first one or two, most of the media are only going to show events where something controversial happens. Now they are only showing the outliers - BLM blocking a freeway, a guy faking that he got hit by a car and trying to force a President to resign over it, BLM going into a quiet library at Dartmouth intimidating students and yelling “Fuck you, you filthy white fucks!” “Fuck you and your comfort!” “Fuck you, you racists shits!”. So now it isn't just the white racists that have a problem with it. Now you have a lot of white people saying to themselves, "hey, if they are screaming that shit at innocent white kids just trying to study for a test, they must feel the same way about all white people and me...they're the real racists. They're bullies. They're inconveniencing people that are innocent. They're trying to get a President of a university fired for a crime he didn't commit." The outliers are the problem and where people start to have a problem with BLM. BLM needs to do a better job of explaining to its participants that these outliers are doing more bad than good. Keep it peaceful, don't bully or intimidate, don't swear at people, don't lie...stay on message.

I, like Optimus, prefer it be about government abuse to everyone, but hey it's not my cause. I get that it's about targeting of blacks and agree that it's a serious problem. I have no problem with them doing it whatsoever.

The Oi said:

How do you feel about the 15 shots after the first one incapacitated him?

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I don't know how I feel about that one way or the other. I would need to know more information. Officers spend a lot of time in target practice facilities so things like the officers rate of fire would be important. Most officers could empty a clip in a few seconds. It could mean that the officer fired most of those rounds as the guy was still standing and few as he had hit the ground or immediately after hitting the ground. If the officer in question kept firing maniacally well after he's laying on the ground dead that's one thing, if these shots were fired and struck this young man in a matter of seconds then that's quite something else. I guess we'll know more as more information is released.

I know people don't necessarily want to hear this but it's not called incapacitate force it's called lethal force and each time an officer draws his weapon he's shooting to kill. Officers are not required to risk their or the public's lives unnecessarily. It's been that way for a long time for everyone of all races. There are multiple situations where white males were shot several times in standoffs with knives. This is nothing new so maybe we should be teaching young people how to act in front of law enforcement so they are not perceived as a threat by police officers. People need to place these kinds of things on the ballot to make change if they feel this is overboard. The police officers are doing what they are trained to do.

What I can't wrap my head around is the fact that a minor was wandering the streets late at night high on PCP. I've dabbled in many different types of substances growing up but PCP was off that list. That shit is hardcore. Where the fuck were the parents?

I thought it was pretty obvious there were several shots fired after the kid was laying on the ground.

I know what you mean and I'm not saying it's right as it's for sure unsettling to see but the point remains that it's shoot to kill even when one is on the ground. Just because you're on the ground doesn't mean you're dead and it appears that he deployed lethal force in a matter of seconds but more information is needed. It's not uncommon for officers to shoot multiple times on the ground or standing up. They are trying to kill the threat.

Law enforcement will make sure you don't get back up. There's no magic bullet count that means you're eliminated. If he had stopped shooting, then started shooting again that would be very hard to explain and should be charged with some other crime but this case is clearly not premeditated murder.

He'll walk if he's charged with murder.

JSS2306 said:

I know what you mean and I'm not saying it's right as it's for sure unsettling to see but the point remains that it's shoot to kill even when one is on the ground. Just because you're on the ground doesn't mean you're dead and it appears that he deployed lethal force in a matter of seconds but more information is needed. It's not uncommon for officers to shoot multiple times on the ground or standing up. They are trying to kill the threat.

Law enforcement will make sure you don't get back up. There's no magic bullet count that means you're eliminated. If he had stopped shooting, then started shooting again that would be very hard to explain and should be charged with some other crime but this case is clearly not premeditated murder.

He'll walk if he's charged with murder.

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You watched it happen on video. How much more info do you need?

You saw the cop shooting him. You could see the bullets hitting him to determine the rate of fire. You saw where the kid was after the first shot and you saw where he was after the next 15.

I think you have enough information to determine whether the additional 13-14 shots were necessary.

I get the point that we'd want to see how the situation developed prior to him walking forward (but not directly at the cops) to get an idea of whether he was the threat that the cop's actions would have indicated.

Tough to say whether he'll walk or not because these things are tough to predict. But in regard to whether additional shots were needed based on how the kid was positioned after the first one...the video is right there.

They paint you into a corner because you just can't help yourself.

The Oi said:

You watched it happen on video. How much more info do you need?

You saw the cop shooting him. You could see the bullets hitting him to determine the rate of fire. You saw where the kid was after the first shot and you saw where he was after the next 15.

I think you have enough information to determine whether the additional 13-14 shots were necessary.

I get the point that we'd want to see how the situation developed prior to him walking forward (but not directly at the cops) to get an idea of whether he was the threat that the cop's actions would have indicated.

Tough to say whether he'll walk or not because these things are tough to predict. But in regard to whether additional shots were needed based on how the kid was positioned after the first one...the video is right there.

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The young man was still moving with a knife in his hand on the ground at the 5:00 mark in the video (6:06 total minutes in the video I've seen). There are more rounds pumped into him and he stops moving at about the 5:03 mark. Shooting stops, officer walks over and kicks knife out of his hand. The entire ordeal between the first and last shots fired is about 15 seconds.

Situation has ended. That's how the use of deadly force situations are carried out in law enforcement.

We need more facts but this does not appear to be murder 1 based on video evidence.

JSS2306 said:

The young man was still moving with a knife in his hand on the ground at the 5:00 mark in the video (6:06 total minutes in the video I've seen). There are more rounds pumped into him and he stops moving at about the 5:03 mark. Shooting stops, officer walks over and kicks knife out of his hand. The entire ordeal between the first and last shots fired is about 15 seconds.

Situation has ended. That's how the use deadly force situations are carried out in law enforcement.

We need more facts but this does not appear to be murder 1 based on video evidence.

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Oh, yeah. It's almost impossible for cops to be punished the way the deserve. No denying that.

I don't think he deserves murder 1 because it's awfully hard to prove that he planned to m

JSS2306 said:

The young man was still moving with a knife in his hand on the ground at the 5:00 mark in the video (6:06 total minutes in the video I've seen). There are more rounds pumped into him and he stops moving at about the 5:03 mark. Shooting stops, officer walks over and kicks knife out of his hand. The entire ordeal between the first and last shots fired is about 15 seconds.

Situation has ended. That's how the use of deadly force situations are carried out in law enforcement.

We need more facts but this does not appear to be murder 1 based on video evidence.

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Saw former cop on the news. You only continue shooting when the guy has a firearm. Initial shots were also not by the book according to him. You only shoot if the guy advances to within 20 feet. He was not advancing on the office ers and was not anywhere near civilians.

The police were advancing, which is also not what you do when a guy has a knife. Basically everything this guy did was wrong.

Cavatt said:

Saw former cop on the news. You only continue shooting when the guy has a firearm. Initial shots were also not by the book according to him. You only shoot if the guy advances to within 20 feet. He was not advancing on the office ers and was not anywhere near civilians.

The police were advancing, which is also not what you do when a guy has a knife. Basically everything this guy did was wrong.

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Not only can deadly force be used by law toward individuals carrying knives or any other objects used to hurt others but it can also be used to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon whom may cause harm to others.

See: 1989 Graham vs. Connor and 1985 Tennessee vs. Garner

It's literally US law and there's information that McDonald slashed one of the police cruisers attempting to block and corral him away from passerbys near a Burger King where he was breaking into cars. If this information is true, then it sounds like this kid was definitely a danger to others and police officers.

Police training, policy and selection need a major shift.
That Chicago officer was mostly in line with his policy and training. "Deadly force is justified if you reasonably believe that serious physical harm will come to you or another". Wording similar to that is the policy of every department in the country. Having a weapon is not necessary to justify deadly force. Officers are conditioned to kill the threat and make it home safe. You are trained officer safety, officer safety, officer safety. Protecting is just something in the fine print.
There is no such thing as a warning shot. Police training targets do not have legs. If you shoot legs and arms you fail and don't work. If you do not have a full magazine + one in the chamber you are in violation.
Officer selection is about a clean background and who you know. Background includes criminal record, drug use and credit. A lot of people that check all those boxes do not understand poor people and drugs.
Police do have a very dangerous job. Some police are heroes and great people. Some police are psychopaths. Policy, training and hiring should focus on protecting and serving over safety. If this was the standard then it would make the psychopath less common. Police need to know going in that they have a dangerous and shitty job. Other peoples safety needs to come before the police officer.

JSS2306 said:

Not only can deadly force be used by law toward individuals carrying knives or any other objects used to hurt others but it can also be used to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon.

See: 1989 Graham vs. Connor and 1985 Tennessee vs. Garner

It's literally US law and there's information that McDonald slashed one of the police cruisers attempting to block and corral him away from passerbys near a Burger King where he was breaking into cars. If this information is true, then it sounds like this kid was definitely a danger to others and police officers.

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Exactly. Justified. Now move along. The next ungrateful punk that comes across Officer Friendly had better get down on his hands and knees and shine his boots with his tongue just like you do. That's how you avoid being riddled with bullets.

JSS2306 said:

Not only can deadly force be used by law toward individuals carrying knives or any other objects used to hurt others but it can also be used to prevent the escape of a fleeing felon whom may cause harm to others.

See: 1989 Graham vs. Connor and 1985 Tennessee vs. Garner

It's literally US law and there's information that McDonald slashed one of the police cruisers attempting to block and corral him away from passerbys near a Burger King where he was breaking into cars. If this information is true, then it sounds like this kid was definitely a danger to others and police officers.

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No one thinks shooting an incapacitated guy while he is on the ground is a good idea. That is why the cop who did it, lied about it.

Looks like the cops deleted the video from the Burger King. How convenient. Several other cops were there including for much longer then the shooter and not one of them fired but with the burden of proof I'm sure the guy walks

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