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French Terror Attack

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From my understanding it doesn't forbid Murder if it's deemed that an attack was placed upon their faith.

Oh, just like Christianity?

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

What about if just one person in a town doesn't believe in the same version of God? Kill everyone.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Or hey, back to your slut shaming idea that only Muslims believe in....

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
 
Oh, just like Christianity?

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

What about if just one person in a town doesn't believe in the same version of God? Kill everyone.

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Or hey, back to your slut shaming idea that only Muslims believe in....

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

This is precisely the point. What a religion says in writing may bear only a faint resemblance to how it is actually practiced at a given time and place in history. It's why I dislike the argument from some on the right who claim that Islam is an inherently violent religion. It is not.
 
Are we just assuming that Harris only read the Quran and that's as far as his understanding goes?

No. But Harris doesn't present any further understanding than that in his works, other than the fact that he's read the Quran "cover to cover" numerous times.

I'd imagine the fact that he read it and tries to interpret it is more than a lot of other followers are willing to do of their religion.

Reading the Quran and trying to interpret it on your own makes no sense, TyGuy.. Islam is not a sola scriptura faith. That's why the hadiths and fatwas exist; just as the Talmud exists; just as the Catechism exists.

It's like saying you will formulate a critique of Catholicism, solely by reading the Bible.

You'd know next to nothing about Catholicism just by reading the Bible. You'd need to understand the history of the Church, as well as the various edicts set forth over the past 2000 years that have structured the faith and religious traditions. Moreover, that would only tell you about the religion itself -- it would tell you next to nothing about the people who practiced it, which is where Harris really goes off the rails.

You still seem to be stuck on him not living the culture; thus the book wouldn't give him enough knowledge. What you said about vitale just knowing basketball I can say the same thing about Harris. He just knows Islam.

Upon what basis do you make this assertion? Understand that I'm not asserting "Vitale just knows basketball." I'm making the assumption that he does.

I'm not arguing, or asserting, that Harris needs to be a Muslim or an Arab to understand Islam... I'm asserting that he's demonstrated no capacity or effort to study the people or culture or an appreciation for the socioeconomic, cultural and historical events that have led to a rise in radical and violent jihadism. His argument ignores the obvious counter-arguments that would be based on real sociological causative events that we can point to, rather than his musings over the qualitative ranking of which religion is worse according to Sam Harris.

So far you haven't refuted any points about Islam.

What points about Islam? Who has presented these points? And FWIW, I'm not an Islamic apologist. I don't believe Islam is correct in it's ethics or worldview.

You spent the last few pages with ad hominem attacks on Harris.

Ad hominem attacks? This is nonsense.

An ad hominem would be attacking Harris as a person, suggesting that because he is xyz, then his argument makes no sense. I've not done that. I've demonstrated what Harris does, shown why it's both self-contradictory and thus hypocritical and illogical, and followed that with my opinion as to why Harris does this even though he has the intellectual capacity to do so much more.

That's not, in any way, an ad hominem attack.

You want to downplay Islams role and instead blame politics(thanks to jkings post).

And you continue to speak to the motives of everyone in this conversation that disagrees with your fearmongering.

I'm downplaying Islam's role, @kosis is justifying terrorism and murder, etc etc...

That's pretty weak.

I also have no idea what you mean by "blame politics." Some issues are just more complex than maybe you're willing to admit or willing to understand?

Maybe we should bring up stats on what Muslims think about Sharia law?

Maybe we should talk about what "Sharia Law" actually means first? Otherwise, you might have no idea what those "stats" (meaning, the Pew Poll you're referring to) actually represent, right?

Do you find the misogynistic, and persecution of gay's, other religious minorities, and non believers that Islam preaches and something that Liberals should champion?

No, it's one of the reasons I have a hard time going to church.
 
@DJTJ What is your end game here? I haven't pointed to Christianity as a pillar of morality. In fact i've done the opposite. So stop trying to say i'm being a hypocrite by not judging Christianity the same way when i've clearly demonstrated that i'm not a fan of all Abrahamic religions.
 
He even took it a step further and called them scumbags and accused them of trying to start a controversy.

You're referring to Charlie Hebdo?

Those guys were scumbags... they WERE trying to start a controversy...

But no one thinks that means they should have been killed. And no one is in here arguing that guys walking through the streets of France with AK-47s is justified.
 
You're referring to Charlie Hebdo?

Those guys were scumbags... they WERE trying to start a controversy...

But no one thinks that means they should have been killed. And no one is in here arguing that guys walking through the streets of France with AK-47s is justified.
How is that all relevant to what transpired. Why does this need to be prefaced?

They were scumbags and trying to start a controversy. That being said they shouldn't have been killed. That doesn't sound disingenuous to you? Usually you dont preface someone being a piece of shit before saying they shouldn't have been killed.
 
@DJTJ What is your end game here? I haven't pointed to Christianity as a pillar of morality. In fact i've done the opposite. So stop trying to say i'm being a hypocrite by not judging Christianity the same way when i've clearly demonstrated that i'm not a fan of all Abrahamic religions.

So what is your end game?

Fuck all the followers of Abrahamic religions? You're talking about the majority of the population of the world.

Are you saying that Islam has an unpalatable and questionable ethical outlook? Well, to you it does.. And to me it does. But what others are trying to get across to you is that this is entirely subjective to the person you ask and how they interpret the religion. I can say the same thing about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc... So, what is the point of taking Islam out of the bunch, singling it out, and then blasting it?

Furthermore, you're not really wanting to discuss religion, but the religious; i.e, the followers and people who comprise said religion.

One moment it's "Islam" the next its "Muslims."

We can talk about Islam all day long, and we can have such an ethical conversation. It's when you conflate that with Muslims in general, and make blanket statements (like Harris does), that this becomes problematic, because you're not separating your understanding of the religion from the understanding and practices of the followers of that religion.
 
Why don't you let me answer the question instead of you doing it for me? Also, is it required that I fully studied sharia law to make any comments on it? This isn't the first time you accused me of not having the required educational or understanding to debate. It reeks of elitism.

I never said you had to have fully studied Sharia law... I surely haven't. But I've read thousands of books on the Middle East, and in those books they talk about Islam (go figure). I don't think I'm qualified to make statements on the merits of any religion, because frankly, I'm no expert.

But, had you done a simple Wikipedia search, you would have known there are four different types of Sharia, and each has nine different branches of law where differences occur.

Had you also done a Wikipedia search, you would have known that Sharia is an ever-changing branch of Islamic law that is not applied 100% by the grand majority of the Muslim population.

And I'm sorry if I am coming across as "elitist" to you. I don't intend to. But I study this stuff for a living and - please don't take this the wrong way - I know more about Middle Eastern society, politics, and history than you do. That's totally fine. @The Human Q-Tip and I have really informative discussions about various political topics including but not limited to: Middle Eastern history/politics, healthcare, economics, and law. I don't mean to speak for him - and as Q-Tip knows, if he disagrees with me here, he can feel free to state it - but I feel that both of us learn a lot about the various topics from these conversations, even if one of us knows more about the topic than the other.

Where I have an issue is when most of someone's - in this case, mine - argument is ignored, that person is called elitist, and the accuser continues to spout nonsense that was already responded to or which they haven't even done the basic research to understand.

Agreed, but what of the people that haven't committed these crimes but believe the murder is justifiable? I don't have the stats, but my recollection is that a disturbing amount of muslims were okay with it. Does that not speak to fundamental flaws in the religion that is dangerous to humanity?
Those polls (i.e., not always scientific) have a lot of flaws.

Utilizing the World Values Survey’s (WVS) study - a scientific, peer reviewed combination of regression models and polling - between 2010-2014, let's looks at three countries – Tunisia, Egypt, and the United States – and their opinions of democracy.

When one compares Tunisia, Egypt, and the United States the results are interesting. First, when examining the subcategory “importance of democracy,” the numbers suggest very little difference between the three states. In fact, Tunisians valued democracy most highly (57.1% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”), followed by Egypt (48.9% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”), and lastly the United States (46.5% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”). Thus, when examining the general term “democracy,” it is actually the Muslim-majority countries that view it as most important. Additionally, this study also examines how Arab-Islamic countries differ from the United States on what is important in a functioning democracy. Here, the biggest difference is that Tunisia and Egypt view governments taxing the rich and subsidizing the poor as essential characteristics of a democracy – 30% and 25.3% respectively – compared to the United States, where only 6.9% view it as essential.

Two other necessary areas are religion and importance of voting. When isolating the variable of religion, the WVS studies how important it is, in a democracy, for religious authorities to interpret laws. Here Egypt views it as most important (17.1% viewing it as essential), followed by Tunisia (7.1% viewing it as essential), and lastly the United States (1.9% viewing it as essential). Additionally, the most traditional definition of democracy is choosing a leader through free and fair election. More importantly, here, this study finds very little difference between the three countries. Citizens of the United States view this metric as essential more frequently than the other two (53.2% view it as essential), yet Tunisia (47.1% view it as essential), and Egypt (45.4% view it as essential) are not far off.

Point being, in regards to Democracy, the population support differential is no more than 11%, all three hovering around 50%. In regards to religion, 17.1% of Egyptians believe it is most important for authorities to interpret laws, and that is far and away the biggest jump in the survey compared to the United States.
 
So, what is the point of taking Islam out of the bunch, singling it out, and then blasting it?
Because these cartoonists were killed by Islamic followers, and this is the thread dedicated to that discussion. Because other Abrahamic religions are older and have gone through more reform and aren't responsible for the majority of these terrorists attacks.
 
How is that all relevant to what transpired. Why does this need to be prefaced?

@kosis statement is in the context of the same post you negative repped; the one about whether or not Charlie Hebdo consisted of bigots and people looking to incite a controversy. It was, and they did.

That doesn't justify their slaughter. No one has claimed the attack was justified -- but it's important to note that Hebdo was not comprised of brave heroes. That's bullshit and doesn't make sense.

They were scumbags and trying to start a controversy. That being said they shouldn't have been killed. That doesn't sound disingenuous to you?

No.. it sounds accurate to me.

I'm.. honestly at a lost as to what I'm missing?

Usually you dont preface someone being a piece of shit before saying they shouldn't have been killed.

There was recently a Klan leader who was found dead in a river... The lead of almost every article in the news was something to the affect of 'resident KKK grand wizard found dead.' They prefaced his murder, for whatever reasons, with the fact that this man was a grand wizard in the Ku Klux Klan.

Now, you might argue, that's not really comparable... Well, in many ways you're right, but if we agree that some of the folks at Charlie Hebdo (whom died or didn't die) were, as you put it "pieces of shit" or "scumbags," then well, it kinda fits...

Let's look at it this way...

Do you take exception to someone pointing out that Charlie Hebdo published arguably racist and bigoted material, and that their doing so was almost assuredly causative to the terrorists choosing their publication as a target?

Would that not be a rational, objective way of phrasing the reality of what happened, without making any moral judgments one way or the other?

Does that statement not contain the exact same understanding of what Charlie Hebdo was doing, just lacking the added ethical argument that their doing so was immoral?
 
We can talk about Islam all day long, and we can have such an ethical conversation. It's when you conflate that with Muslims in general, and make blanket statements (like Harris does), that this becomes problematic, because you're not separating your understanding of the religion from the understanding and practices of the followers of that religion.

This is an interesting point. Should we should define a religion by its texts, or by the current practices of its adherents?

I tend to think the latter, but it has to be recognized that adherents are almost never going to share the same views/practices. So to say that a religion is "X" may be misleading, other than some very basic ideas that don't really involve morality or action. Christianity is a believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for our sins. Islam is that Mohammed was the last and greatest Prophet of God. Beyond that....

I think that what a religion "is" at any given time is sort of a mishmash of what the adherents believe, weighted by the number who adhere to each different interpretation, etc..
 
@jking948
I'm glad you mentioned flaws in stats because it's my understanding that those European crime stats that were cited earlier also possibly aren't accurate.

And yes, I feel you were being an elitist or academic snob if you will. How else am i'm suppose to take paraphrasing here "You don't have the required educational level to debate this topic." I stopped posting here for half the season because I felt like you and Goury weren't posting in good faith.

Then you continue to refer to my posts as nonsense. Boy, that sure sounds endearing and that you respect my opinion, or that you're arguing in good faith. I read more books than you, I know more than you, what you have written is nonsense.
 
Because these cartoonists were killed by Islamic followers, and this is the thread dedicated to that discussion.

This misses the point Ty.

Why should Muslims be singled out? Because of Charlie Hebdo? So if a Christian or Hindu does a terrorist attack in the name of their religion, then we should attack the followers of that religion? How does this kind of collective punishment make sense?

Because other Abrahamic religions are older and have gone through more reform and aren't responsible for the majority of these terrorists attacks.

How have you measured the degree of reform between Christianity and Islam? You understand that Islam takes a great deal of it's religious foundation from Christianity right?

I mean, it seems you've constructed, in an ad hoc manner, a rationalized framework by which Islam stands out and is deserving of criticism more so than other religions.
 
I never said you had to have fully studied Sharia law... I surely haven't. But I've read thousands of books on the Middle East, and in those books they talk about Islam (go figure). I don't think I'm qualified to make statements on the merits of any religion, because frankly, I'm no expert.

But, had you done a simple Wikipedia search, you would have known there are four different types of Sharia, and each has nine different branches of law where differences occur.

Had you also done a Wikipedia search, you would have known that Sharia is an ever-changing branch of Islamic law that is not applied 100% by the grand majority of the Muslim population.

And I'm sorry if I am coming across as "elitist" to you. I don't intend to. But I study this stuff for a living and - please don't take this the wrong way - I know more about Middle Eastern society, politics, and history than you do. That's totally fine. @The Human Q-Tip and I have really informative discussions about various political topics including but not limited to: Middle Eastern history/politics, healthcare, economics, and law. I don't mean to speak for him - and as Q-Tip knows, if he disagrees with me here, he can feel free to state it - but I feel that both of us learn a lot about the various topics from these conversations, even if one of us knows more about the topic than the other.

Where I have an issue is when most of someone's - in this case, mine - argument is ignored, that person is called elitist, and the accuser continues to spout nonsense that was already responded to or which they haven't even done the basic research to understand.


Those polls (i.e., not always scientific) have a lot of flaws.

Utilizing the World Values Survey’s (WVS) study - a scientific, peer reviewed combination of regression models and polling - between 2010-2014, let's looks at three countries – Tunisia, Egypt, and the United States – and their opinions of democracy.

When one compares Tunisia, Egypt, and the United States the results are interesting. First, when examining the subcategory “importance of democracy,” the numbers suggest very little difference between the three states. In fact, Tunisians valued democracy most highly (57.1% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”), followed by Egypt (48.9% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”), and lastly the United States (46.5% of respondents rated it as “absolutely important”). Thus, when examining the general term “democracy,” it is actually the Muslim-majority countries that view it as most important. Additionally, this study also examines how Arab-Islamic countries differ from the United States on what is important in a functioning democracy. Here, the biggest difference is that Tunisia and Egypt view governments taxing the rich and subsidizing the poor as essential characteristics of a democracy – 30% and 25.3% respectively – compared to the United States, where only 6.9% view it as essential.

Two other necessary areas are religion and importance of voting. When isolating the variable of religion, the WVS studies how important it is, in a democracy, for religious authorities to interpret laws. Here Egypt views it as most important (17.1% viewing it as essential), followed by Tunisia (7.1% viewing it as essential), and lastly the United States (1.9% viewing it as essential). Additionally, the most traditional definition of democracy is choosing a leader through free and fair election. More importantly, here, this study finds very little difference between the three countries. Citizens of the United States view this metric as essential more frequently than the other two (53.2% view it as essential), yet Tunisia (47.1% view it as essential), and Egypt (45.4% view it as essential) are not far off.

Point being, in regards to Democracy, the population support differential is no more than 11%, all three hovering around 50%. In regards to religion, 17.1% of Egyptians believe it is most important for authorities to interpret laws, and that is far and away the biggest jump in the survey compared to the United States.

To all this, I just want to add that interpreting such things can be difficult because the words may have somewhat different meanings in different societies, so we may not actually be comparing apples to apples. For example, I would guess that one reason that "democracy" ranks lower in the U.S. is because so many of us have drilled into us that we're a "republic". I'm not sure if that distinction exists in those other countries. Had the question been phrased as "a Republican form of government", the response may have been different.

The bolded language struck me as perhaps one of the core issues we're trying to figure out right now. 17.1% in Egypt is a distinct minority, but it's not an insignificant minority either. I have to ask -- is there a continuum of responses from (for example) "essential" to "important" to "irrelevant" provided in that survey? If so, what are the various responses?

That's really interesting stuff, btw.
 
I'm just going to say that I'm getting the weirdest collection of RCF "likes" I've ever gotten in this thread. Don't know what the hell is going on with you people.
 

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