French Terror Attack

[Jordan]

@jking948
I'm glad you mentioned flaws in stats because it's my understanding that those European crime stats that were cited earlier also possibly aren't accurate.

Flaws in polls, not stats. Those stats are verified through government and the police force. Polls have bias.

And yes, I feel you were being an elitist or academic snob if you will. How else am i'm suppose to take paraphrasing here "You don't have the required educational level to debate this topic." I stopped posting here for half the season because I felt like you and Goury weren't posting in good faith.

I never said that quote. Literally, I said the exact opposite. I'd appreciate if you had the decency to not misquote me.

Then you continue to refer to my posts as nonsense. Boy, that sure sounds endearing and that you respect my opinion, or that you're arguing in good faith. I read more books than you, I know more than you, what you have written is nonsense.

I also never said that your posts specifically were nonsense. But you can read into my posts however you'd like, honestly. It's really too bad... I like you as a poster. It seems that you are either incapable (I highly, highly doubt this) or do not have the desire to approach my arguments on their merit (this, in my opinion, is far more likely).

 

[TyGuy]

How have you measured the degree of reform between Christianity and Islam? You understand that Islam takes a great deal of it's religious foundation from Christianity right?

I mean, it seems you've constructed, in an ad hoc manner, a rationalized framework by which Islam stands out and is deserving of criticism more so than other religions.

Why do I need to measure it? We know there has been enough reform to the point that we don't have to worry about pissing them off or off with our heads.

 

[gourimoko]

This is an interesting point. Should we should define a religion by its texts, or by the current practices of its adherents?

I would argue a religion is defined by it's doctrine; not the inherent text or the practices of it's people. In the Catholic faith we recognize both Scripture and Tradition with Tradition including both written works of the Church as well as practices that have been passed down through the generations, with many local regions having their own congregational traditions. This is considered the Church, with the people of the Church being it's practitioners who are not expected to live up to the standards set by Christ, but to nonetheless attempt to do their best.

So to answer the question more succinctly, it's all of the above.

I tend to think the latter, but it has to be recognized that adherents are almost never going to share the same views/practices. So to say that a religion is "X" may be misleading, other than some very basic ideas that don't really involve morality or action. Christianity is a believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and died for our sins. Islam is that Mohammed was the last and greatest Prophet of God. Beyond that....

Right, in a nutshell, that's really ALL you can say about Christianity and Islam since there are so many interpretations. For example, Catholics cannot assert, much to our chagrin, a universal understanding of the Bible and Christ's message; simply because there are far too many Protestants to ignore that have varying opinions -- and even within the Church, there is a great deal of debate and dissent of opinion.

I think that what a religion "is" at any given time is sort of a mishmash of what the adherents believe, weighted by the number who adhere to each different interpretation, etc..

Can't say I disagree with this really..

 

[Jordan]

To all this, I just want to add that interpreting such things can be difficult because the words may have somewhat different meanings in different societies, so we may not actually be comparing apples to apples. For example, I would guess that one reason that "democracy" ranks lower in the U.S. is because so many of us have drilled into us that we're a "republic". I'm not sure if that distinction exists in those other countries. Had the question been phrased as "a Republican form of government", the response may have been different.

The bolded language struck me as perhaps one of the core issues we're trying to figure out right now. 17.1% in Egypt is a distinct minority, but it's not an insignificant minority either. I have to ask -- is there a continuum of responses from (for example) "essential" to "important" to "irrelevant" provided in that survey? If so, what are the various responses?

That's really interesting stuff, btw.

I'm actually running to go to a bar in DC called the Board Room and play the boardgame Diplomacy about WWI while drinking beer with my PhD classmates. So I will try and answer more in depth later. I think you should be able to get the info here, but if you can't/don't want to just let me know and I'll pull it up later!

http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/wvs.jsp

P.S., I totally agree with your first point. I think discourse and pedagogy and how they influence societal opinion are fascinating.

 

[gourimoko]

Why do I need to measure it? We know there has been enough reform to the point that we don't have to worry about pissing them off or off with our heads.

If you haven't measured it, how can you compare one against the other???

Ty... I thought you were making a statement specifically about time and reform; specifically the many different reform movements and reinterpretations of Christianity that has happened over the last 2,000 years. Or the manner in which the Talmud has come to be after much deliberation and debate over the meaning of the Torah and the traditions in Judaism.

Essentially, I .. thought you were trying to make a rational argument.

It seems to be that instead, you're saying that the degree to which Islam is reformed is defined by people being pissed off and beheadings?

 

[gourimoko]

I'm just going to say that I'm getting the weirdest collection of RCF "likes" I've ever gotten in this thread. Don't know what the hell is going on with you people.

 

[TyGuy]

I've never said that quote. Literally, I said the exact opposite. I'd appreciate if you had the decency to not misquote me.

Did I not say right before that I was paraphrasing. Perhaps I confused it by putting it in quotes, but I was paraphrasing.

It seems that you are either incapable (I highly, highly doubt this) or do not have the desire to approach my arguments on their merit (this, in my opinion, is far more likely).

I actually think you brought the best argument to the table here that Goury ran with. Most of what he has been doing is just discrediting Sam Harris instead of attacking the main points.

 

[TyGuy]

I'm just going to say that I'm getting the weirdest collection of RCF "likes" I've ever gotten in this thread. Don't know what the hell is going on with you people.

That's because i'm the bad guy in this thread. You have plenty of other opportunities to shine.

 

[gourimoko]

I actually think you brought the best argument to the table here that Goury ran with. Most of what he has been doing is just discrediting Sam Harris instead of attacking the main points.

I've asked before.. what points?

What points are you trying to make?

 

[gourimoko]

That's because i'm the bad guy in this thread. You have plenty of other opportunities to shine.

Relax dude.. Nobody thinks your a bad guy...

I dunno why I keep being nice when you keep acting like a dick... I think it's the fucking dog picture..

Spoiler

This is a joke.. Do not take it seriously. R-E-L-A-X

 

[TyGuy]

If you haven't measured it, how can you compare one against the other???

Is it really necessary to measure the exact amount of reform to know it's generally safe to criticize/parody one faith in comparison to the other?

 

[TyGuy]

Relax dude.. Nobody thinks your a bad guy...

I dunno why I keep being nice when you keep acting like a dick... I think it's the fucking dog picture..

Spoiler

This is a joke.. Do not take it seriously. R-E-L-A-X

So by having a difference of opinion i'm being a dick? Can we measure this?

 

[kosis]

I'm honestly confounded by the confusion here.

@The Human Q-Tip is saying that I put emphasis in the wrong place. The entire argument is based on Hebdo and their cartoons/ cartoonists. I didn't realize I had to come out and say the acts were wrong and leave the forum. Is this a Charlie Hebdo "in memoriam" thread??

All I'm trying to do is explain that 1.5B millions are offended by those actions but we all move on with our lives. We don't appreciate having the Prophet depicted with a bomb as his turban and all of that other juvenile stuff. BUT, we don't kill people over it. Is that a permissable opinion? Yes, you have crazy ass people that did. But can we stop acting like this was an ummah-organized act? This wasn't even a minuscule proportion of the Islamic population. Hear you tell it though, and every Muslim-town all over the globe was up in flames. How many incidents in the US? There's a bunch of us here, FYI.

What am I missing?

 

[gourimoko]

So by having a difference of opinion i'm being a dick? Can we measure this?

See, that was funny..

 

[LennoxLewis]

Yea I don't think you're a bad guy, unless you change your avi from that dog to a Warriors logo. I think that's what best about these forums, especially off topic. You get multiple views but in the end we all have that one believe, Go Cavs and try your best Browns.