2011 NBA Redraft

[Jon]

It's impossible to count on him to draft really good players with our 2 1st round picks?

We have two 2nd round picks as well, unless you weren't holding him responsible for hitting on those as well.

But even with the #1 over all selection, there's an element of luck involved. If Chris Grant's group had the track record of the Spurs organization when it comes to identifying prospects it would be one thing, but even their most recent #1 picks aren't exactly tearing things up. To be effective, not only do you have to draft the right players; you have to be able to effectively motivate and develop them. That's going to make things harder for us, because Byron has little patience for players who keep getting things wrong. Shannon? JJ? Christian? They were all #1 picks in the Ferry/Grant era, and they're all gone. So, our track record is a very non-Spurs-like 0 for 3.

Maybe we've changed our draft strategy as in each case we ignored intangibles to some extent and reached based on raw ability?

Anyway, any plan that relies on hitting on all your draft picks is a bad plan ...

 

[Randolphkeys]

We have two 2nd round picks as well, unless you weren't holding him responsible for hitting on those as well.

But even with the #1 over all selection, there's an element of luck involved. If Chris Grant's group had the track record of the Spurs organization when it comes to identifying prospects it would be one thing, but even their most recent #1 picks aren't exactly tearing things up. To be effective, not only do you have to draft the right players; you have to be able to effectively motivate and develop them. That's going to make things harder for us, because Byron has little patience for players who keep getting things wrong. Shannon? JJ? Christian? They were all #1 picks in the Ferry/Grant era, and they're all gone. So, our track record is a very non-Spurs-like 0 for 3.

Maybe we've changed our draft strategy as in each case we ignored intangibles to some extent and reached based on raw ability?

Anyway, any plan that relies on hitting on all your draft picks is a bad plan ...

But part of that responsibility falls on the coaching staff and the player. After showing that he had some maturity issues with the Cavs, Shannon Brown is averaging 9 points and 2 rebounds as a sixth man for Phoenix. Danny Green developed into a 9 ppg with 4rpg defender and three point shooter for the Spurs. Neither one was a desired commodity after leaving the Cavs, but other teams developed the talent. JJ Hickson has no value right now, but the right coaching staff and a great deal of maturity and perspective on Hickson's part could change that.

 

[abraxas]

Just for fun -- where would Kyrie and Tristan go in this year's draft (had they stayed a 2nd year). Of course it's impossible to imagine what their seasons would've been like, but let's say they had their freshman years this year and were entering the 2012 draft. Does Kyrie go 2nd after Davis, or 3rd after AD and MKG? Does Tristan make the top 10?

 

[Housh]

Just for fun -- where would Kyrie and Tristan go in this year's draft (had they stayed a 2nd year). Of course it's impossible to imagine what their seasons would've been like, but let's say they had their freshman years this year and were entering the 2012 draft. Does Kyrie go 2nd after Davis, or 3rd after AD and MKG? Does Tristan make the top 10?

I think Derrick Williams play would've hurt Davis....Kyrie would still be 1 imo

 

[Housh]

Tristian....of all dudes comin out he surely wouldn't go 4th again

 

[winner0274]

Kyrie would probably be an absolute beast, leading Duke to an NCAA championship. With a full season he would have been hyped a lot more than he was. I imagine he and Davis would be considered the two superstar prospects with MKG a tier below them.

 

[Jon]

But part of that responsibility falls on the coaching staff and the player. After showing that he had some maturity issues with the Cavs, Shannon Brown is averaging 9 points and 2 rebounds as a sixth man for Phoenix. Danny Green developed into a 9 ppg with 4rpg defender and three point shooter for the Spurs. Neither one was a desired commodity after leaving the Cavs, but other teams developed the talent. JJ Hickson has no value right now, but the right coaching staff and a great deal of maturity and perspective on Hickson's part could change that.

Sometimes a player needs patience, and sometimes a player needs to be kicked to the curb. What you have to wonder is if there isn't a way to get through to those guys earlier.

Coaching, other players, and well-defined roles definitely play a huge part. It's heckuva lot easier for a player to join the Lakers, Spurs, or the Suns and just fall in to a complimentary role.

In Shannon's case, he tried to do too much too early and rather than try to get through to his thick head - we just switched to using the player who got it: Gibson. With JJ, Scott was able to force him to focus on his rebounding and he improved, but he got distracted by his J, and continued to be clueless on D.

Somehow we've got to make this work, either by selecting guys who are more coachable, or changing how we develop and motivate these guys. I think we're trying to do both, but we seem well on our way on failing with Samardo, Semih, Harangody, and Omri. Would it surprise anyone if all 4 of those guys were gone next year?

We can write them all off as low-risk, low-payoff prospects - and that wouldn't be unfair ... but I think it's still a test of our "systems". Can we identify prospects and improve them through player development?

 

[Lumthemad]

Sometimes a player needs patience, and sometimes a player needs to be kicked to the curb. What you have to wonder is if there isn't a way to get through to those guys earlier.

Coaching, other players, and well-defined roles definitely play a huge part. It's heckuva lot easier for a player to join the Lakers, Spurs, or the Suns and just fall in to a complimentary role.

In Shannon's case, he tried to do too much too early and rather than try to get through to his thick head - we just switched to using the player who got it: Gibson. With JJ, Scott was able to force him to focus on his rebounding and he improved, but he got distracted by his J, and continued to be clueless on D.

Somehow we've got to make this work, either by selecting guys who are more coachable, or changing how we develop and motivate these guys. I think we're trying to do both, but we seem well on our way on failing with Samardo, Semih, Harangody, and Omri. Would it surprise anyone if all 4 of those guys were gone next year?

We can write them all off as low-risk, low-payoff prospects - and that wouldn't be unfair ... but I think it's still a test of our "systems". Can we identify prospects and improve them through player development?

I think we are trying to develop a culture within the Cavalier organization but i also think it takes time, which can be a difficult thing to ask for in professional sports. (which often asks for win and WIN NOW) We've had some success in finding various players with guys like Gee, Samardo and Manny Harris and hell, even Donald Sloan to an extent. I think we are getting a more and more solid system in place but in order for that to work, it's got to be nearly seemless with the coaching staff. I don't think we are quite there as of yet....although i think Coach Scott is attempting to help move the organization in that direction. I think and have always thought we tend to be able to scout talent fairly well, we just sometimes cannot make the talent work for us the way we'd like. All the kids/guys you mentioned were skilled enough to play, they just came short because of other reasons. I'd rather run short based off missing on a kid versus drafting someone like a Langdon or Thabeet.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Somehow we've got to make this work, either by selecting guys who are more coachable, or changing how we develop and motivate these guys. I think we're trying to do both, but we seem well on our way on failing with Samardo, Semih, Harangody, and Omri. Would it surprise anyone if all 4 of those guys were gone next year?

We can write them all off as low-risk, low-payoff prospects - and that wouldn't be unfair ... but I think it's still a test of our "systems". Can we identify prospects and improve them through player development?

I skipped some of your post because they refer to the previous coaching staff. Let's rightfully focus on the present crop. The lack of coaching this past offseason surely didn't help Byron Scott develop these young players. That was the result of the lockout, and young teams paid the price in many ways.

Samardo was an undrafted rookie because of questions about his coachability. He showed up overweight and acted as if his roster spot was assured. It sounds like a pattern to me.

Semih was a player who surprised many pundits by coming over to the NBA a little earlier than many expected. He was a VERY low second rounder, but proved that he had some nice qualities in Boston. His lack of motor and questionable mental approach have hounded him since the draft:

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/semih-erden

Harangody and Omri seem to be the opposite issue than Samardo and Semih. The knock on these guys has been a low ceiling for improvement. If the light goes on for Samardo or Semih, they could have a role off the bench... there just seem to be mental roadblocks. As athletes, Harangody and Omri may not be able to get more out of their bodies. Harangody has the body and athleticism of a career D-leaguer or European export. His approach to the game in practice and shooting ability has kept him on the end of two NBA benches... but that seems to be the ceiling for a guy who cannot keep up physically.

Omri is the guy I have hope for out of this motley crew. He has some physical traits and a good mental approach to the game that don't limit his ceiling. I think the Cavs should give him another healthy offseason to show what he can do.

 

[Jon]

The lockout hurt a lot, but player development shouldn't stop just because the season started. The involvement of the GM, player development staff, and coaching staff are certainly intertwined, but I'd hope Grant isn't just signing these guys so we can have live bodies to keep the bench warm and act as practice dummies. I hope he signed them for a reason and that we'd focus on developing whatever he saw - and that he's constantly re-evaluating that to determine if there's someone out there who'd be an upgrade.

Maybe I'm expecting too much ???

I'd like to read more about how the Spurs operate ... for instance how they decided to sign Danny Green and what they did once they had him to get him to the point that he's gone from 90 minutes last season for them to well over 1000 minutes this season.

 

[Randolphkeys]

The lockout hurt a lot, but player development shouldn't stop just because the season started. The involvement of the GM, player development staff, and coaching staff are certainly intertwined, but I'd hope Grant isn't just signing these guys so we can have live bodies to keep the bench warm and act as practice dummies. I hope he signed them for a reason and that we'd focus on developing whatever he saw - and that he's constantly re-evaluating that to determine if there's someone out there who'd be an upgrade.

Maybe I'm expecting too much ???

I'd like to read more about how the Spurs operate ... for instance how they decided to sign Danny Green and what they did once they had him to get him to the point that he's gone from 90 minutes last season for them to well over 1000 minutes this season.

How much teaching has the team been able to do with a schedule that dictates 3-5 games per week? That really cuts into practice time.

 

[Jon]

How much teaching has the team been able to do with a schedule that dictates 3-5 games per week? That really cuts into practice time.

The guys I mentioned have spent weeks at a time collecting DNPCD's or playing limited minutes. I'd consider any minute they're not traveling, sleeping, eating, or lifting available for working with our coaches on their game. Maybe that's not how they do things in the "L" ... but if they're not, they're just wasting time.

 

[Triumph36]

Just for fun -- where would Kyrie and Tristan go in this year's draft (had they stayed a 2nd year). Of course it's impossible to imagine what their seasons would've been like, but let's say they had their freshman years this year and were entering the 2012 draft. Does Kyrie go 2nd after Davis, or 3rd after AD and MKG? Does Tristan make the top 10?

Kyrie goes 2nd assuming he were able to stay healthy that second year.

Thompson goes somewhere in the late lottery (10-14ish)

edit: misread. with the injury kyrie still likely goes 2nd tho.

Kawhi Leonard was drafted 15th by the Indiana Pacers, who traded him shortly thereafter to acquire George Hill. Its not like the Spurs just drafted him low, they sent out a nice piece to the Pacers to obtain him. Still a great move for them, just not as insanely great as revisionist history makes it seem.

it's really not "revisionist history."

i wasn't referring to quality of the trade. i was simply stating the spurs pretty much always crush their draft picks no matter where they are picking.

 

[Randolphkeys]

The guys I mentioned have spent weeks at a time collecting DNPCD's or playing limited minutes. I'd consider any minute they're not traveling, sleeping, eating, or lifting available for working with our coaches on their game. Maybe that's not how they do things in the "L" ... but if they're not, they're just wasting time.

No argument concerning the end of the bench... They should be practicing. However, I did just outline how two of the four you mentioned have some issues that are out of the hands of coaches or management. There comes a point where Semih and Samardo are responsible for their own work ethic. As far as Harangody, how will additional practice make him less of an athletic liability?

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

To put into comparison, how stacked the 2012 draft is with PFs...

I would trade Tristan Thompson, and the Sac first for the chance to draft Thomas Robinson if he is still there after our pick.

I would offer the same package for Cody OR Tyler Zeller. Whatever pick they are available. 6-15.

You just DONT do what the Cavs did on draft night. Not if you had already done your homework on TT and realized that 5-7 of the top PF prospects in this draft were going to go ahead of him if he had returned to school and tried to come out this year.

He and Corey Joseph got out while they could "possibly" be late lottery and late first rounders, respectively. And only the guy who had a part in drafting Shelden Williams with the 5th overall pick, would reach like that on him twice.

(Goes back to rubbing a treasure troll, hoping David Stern will deliver a top 3-5 pick for us)