2012 Series #2 vs White Sox -|- April 9th, 10th, and 11th.

[RealKingofCleve]

No, but your use of that word is ignorant.

The irony of you discounting their 30-15 start as a fluke but bashing those who aren't jumping over a bridge because of a 1-3 start is precious.

I'm not jumping over a bridge. But the comments on the lineup being good last year were not true. Looking at the lineup, I don't see this team scoring runs consistenly. I bet they will finish in the bottom half of the AL, anyone can feel free to take me up on that.

 

[7foot3]

The Indians do need a guy like that. A dude with the threat to hit 40 in a season and is a lock to hit above .300 and get on base consistently. A lot of teams need a guy like that though..

Players that broke .300/40/120 last year - zero. In the last four years - Pujols did it once. Though a few more have come close. This isn't the offense environment of the mid 90s anymore.

And Jigo with the typical strawman when it comes to stats.

 

[CavsFinals2016]

No, but your use of that word is ignorant.

The irony of you discounting their 30-15 start as a fluke but bashing those who aren't jumping over a bridge because of a 1-3 start is precious.

Well they went 50-62 the rest of the way. I'd take that sample size.

You can't compare us to the Yankees or Red Sox who have all-star caliber players at almost every position. We are who we are. We don't have Gonzalez or Tex at 1st, we have Kotchman/Lopez. We don't have Cano or Pedroia at 2nd, we have Kipnis. We don't have Youk/A-Rod at 3rd, we have Hannahan. Ortiz/Ibanez are DH, we have a guy with an arthritic shoulder. They have 5 tool guys like Ellsbury (who we passed over for Crowe) and Granderson, we have Choo who has been in a year long slump. We're just not that good of a team. I want them to succeed, but we don't have the players.

You're talking about a 30-15 start last year when Josh Tomlin was nearly unhittable and had a sub-3.00 ERA after the first two months. Then, he didn't have an ERA under 4.50 for the rest of the year. Mitch Talbot was ok for 3 starts and then fell off the face of the Earth.

We're all fans of the Tribe, but we're realistic. Major League is just a movie.

 

[Real Deal]

Cleveland just needs to build around Santana and get them a leadoff hitter. When will Lindor be ready? If Droobs is still around then Lindor will need a position change.

 

[RealKingofCleve]

Cleveland just needs to build around Santana and get them a leadoff hitter. When will Lindor be ready? If Droobs is still around then Lindor will need a position change.

He's got braces. He's just a kid. Around 4 years.

 

[The Oi]

And Jigo with the typical strawman when it comes to stats.

I didn't claim anyone suggested that argument, so there's no strawman to be had. I just suggested that people pay closer attention to the following metrics

Wins Above Replacement- WAR
Tabulation of Replacement Individual Plate Attempts- TRIPA
Wins Helping Optional Replacement Equivalent- WHORE
Average Interpolation Near Equivalent- AINE

I don't get the problem here. I'm trying to get involved with serious discussion and I'm getting rebuffed left and right. Weird...

 

[CavsFinals2016]

Question for those who don't think Santana is a star - what catcher would you trade him straight up for in MLB?

A star is about personality. Santana is the best offensive catcher in the league, fine. But catchers are also not offensively inclined. Kyrie is a star because he's out in the community and openly embraces Cleveland. He is a leader and has an outgoing personality. You know when he is having a good time. Santana isn't that, and thats ok because he doesn't have to be something that he's not. But lets not mislabel people.

You know why people loved the 90s Indians? Yeah, obviously they were good, but they had so much personality. People outside of Cleveland were fans. Lofton, Omar, Baerga, Thome, Manny, Alomar, and even Albert put everything out on the line for the team. They were having a great time with one another and it showed on the field so much so that it rubbed off on the fans. We sorta saw that magic in 2007. When Grady and Victor went down, the guys that made the game exciting were gone and since then, its spiraled down to what it is now. These guys aren't having fun and it looks like they're going through the motions. Our three best hitters, Asdrubal, Choo, and Santana, make no connection with the fans. And you wonder why the fans don't come?

 

[Huber.]

Too much work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP0mhGmUbr0#t=01m17s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP0mhGmUbr0#t=01m50s

 

[SOA]

Well they went 50-62 the rest of the way. I'd take that sample size.

blah, blah . . .whine . . . blah, blah, blah
We're all fans of the Tribe, but we're realistic. Major League is just a movie.

if you are"realistic" you will acknowledge the injuries last year as well as the improvements in pitching going into this year

No one is discounting that we have question marks at 1B, 3B and LF, however in being "realistic" we are recognizing we are in better position last year than this year

the stars have to align for us to overtake the Tigers , but its not a reason to NOT be optomistic

 

[Huber.]

A star is about personality. Santana is the best offensive catcher in the league, fine. But catchers are also not offensively inclined. Kyrie is a star because he's out in the community and openly embraces Cleveland. He is a leader and has an outgoing personality. You know when he is having a good time. Santana isn't that, and thats ok because he doesn't have to be something that he's not. But lets not mislabel people.

You know why people loved the 90s Indians? Yeah, obviously they were good, but they had so much personality. People outside of Cleveland were fans. Lofton, Omar, Baerga, Thome, Manny, Alomar, and even Albert put everything out on the line for the team. They were having a great time with one another and it showed on the field so much so that it rubbed off on the fans. We sorta saw that magic in 2007. When Grady and Victor went down, the guys that made the game exciting were gone and since then, its spiraled down to what it is now. These guys aren't having fun and it looks like they're going through the motions. Our three best hitters, Asdrubal, Choo, and Santana, make no connection with the fans. And you wonder why the fans don't come?

This and it doesn't help the nation media doesn't cover the Indians or give any Indian facetime. Why? Because they don't have any guys with consistently great basic stats that don't require a long division equation and the team has is garbage every other year. If Santana starts hitting 30hrs a year like Prince or Bautista (stars in small markets), learns to speak better engwish then he will be a star.

 

[Steve_424]

A star is about personality. Santana is the best offensive catcher in the league, fine. But catchers are also not offensively inclined. Kyrie is a star because he's out in the community and openly embraces Cleveland. He is a leader and has an outgoing personality. You know when he is having a good time. Santana isn't that, and thats ok because he doesn't have to be something that he's not. But lets not mislabel people.

You know why people loved the 90s Indians? Yeah, obviously they were good, but they had so much personality. People outside of Cleveland were fans. Lofton, Omar, Baerga, Thome, Manny, Alomar, and even Albert put everything out on the line for the team. They were having a great time with one another and it showed on the field so much so that it rubbed off on the fans. We sorta saw that magic in 2007. When Grady and Victor went down, the guys that made the game exciting were gone and since then, its spiraled down to what it is now. These guys aren't having fun and it looks like they're going through the motions. Our three best hitters, Asdrubal, Choo, and Santana, make no connection with the fans. And you wonder why the fans don't come?

Are you on Twitter? If so, you'd know that collectively, the Indians players connect with more fans than any other Cleveland sports team.

With that being said, I guess it also comes down to your definition of a "star". I define it as one of the top 2 players at any given position, which Santana is at catcher. If you define it as having an outgoing personality that fans like, then I guess he's not.

People loved the 90's Indians because they had one of the best offenses in MLB history (in 1994-95), had three current or future Baseball Hall of Famers (Thome, Vizquel, Murray), two should-have-been Hall of Famers (Belle, Ramirez), three Indians Hall of Famers (Alomar Jr., Lofton, Nagy), and one perennial All-Star (Baerga), and ran away with the division title every year. The personality of the team certainly helped, but the 2007 Indians had a TON of personality and still didn't get great fan support.

Truth is, the 90's was a perfect storm - new park, all-time great lineup, no Browns, Cavs irrelevant, strong economy - and we were all spoiled by it.

 

[Steve_424]

This and it doesn't help the nation media doesn't cover the Indians or give any Indian facetime. Why? Because they don't have any guys with consistently great basic stats that don't require a long division equation and the team has is garbage every other year. If Santana starts hitting 30hrs a year like Prince or Bautista (stars in small markets), learns to speak better engwish then he will be a star.

What Cleveland athlete does get serious national coverage? Santana not being a "national star" is due to the media ignoring Cleveland sports in general, not just the Indians. Hell, Kyrie Irving barely gets noticed on the national stage. The only exception was LeBron, and half of that was Nike's promotional skills.

 

[7foot3]

I didn't claim anyone suggested that argument, so there's no strawman to be had. I just suggested that people pay closer attention to the following metrics

Wins Above Replacement- WAR
Tabulation of Replacement Individual Plate Attempts- TRIPA
Wins Helping Optional Replacement Equivalent- WHORE
Average Interpolation Near Equivalent- AINE

I don't get the problem here. I'm trying to get involved with serious discussion and I'm getting rebuffed left and right. Weird...

I know you're not even being remotely close to serious, so whatever, but the made up stat names joke is dumb and jaded. Hoynes, Ocker and their ilk stopped with them years ago.

 

[The Oi]

I know you're not even being remotely close to serious, so whatever, but the made up stat names joke is dumb and jaded. Hoynes, Ocker and their ilk stopped with them years ago.

Oh, I'm sorry I didn't realize this concept had already been beaten into the ground. I never followed Ocker and Hoynes because I prefer to keep myself in the dark as to inside Tribe information to stay objective. I'm sure you understand.

I may be involved with this thread over the next 24 hours to express opinions on the Tribe's performance against the Sox, so I will adjust my jokes accordingly if I make them at all.

 

[Chris]

Players that broke .300/40/120 last year - zero. In the last four years - Pujols did it once. Though a few more have come close. This isn't the offense environment of the mid 90s anymore.

And Jigo with the typical strawman when it comes to stats.

I said a threat to hit 40.

I also don't care about RBIs really. I mean I care about them but if the guy only gets 90 RBIs instead of 120 I'm not pissing myself in anger. Shit, I'll take 2 more guys like Santana who can hit 30. Right now a 2nd year catcher is your biggest power threat, and after him you have...what? Choo/Cabrera with their ~15-20 HRs? The game isn't all about power, but it's not like our offensive talent is overflowing. In fact, I'd say it is well below sea level.