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2016 Presidential Race AND POLL

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Who do you plan to vote for in November?

  • Hillary Clinton

    Votes: 93 39.6%
  • Donald Trump

    Votes: 44 18.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 55 23.4%
  • I won't vote

    Votes: 43 18.3%

  • Total voters
    235
They are very good friends, and not just for the cameras. Both Barack and Michelle Obama think very highly of Joe Biden. He's an honest and loyal guy, even if he can put his foot in his mouth more often than one might like.

Btw, Sherrod Brown is a great guy. ;)

I miss Ohio politics. There's not much to do in California except raise money.
That's really nice to hear. I actually wish Biden was the "centrist" option instead of Hillary (I know he is definitely on her left, but that would be his role compared to Bernie). I think he and Obama have been quite the team and it's nice to hear that relationship extends beyond the cameras.

And I totally agree about Sherrod. I worked for him during the Josh Mandel campaign and was always impressed. I vividly remember when we were hosting a fundraiser and someone started talking badly about Mandel (not unjustified) and Sherrod shut the guy down and basically said that he didn't want personal attacks to be part of the campaign. It was very similar to the McCain and Obama not being an American episode.
 
They are very good friends, and not just for the cameras. Both Barack and Michelle Obama think very highly of Joe Biden. He's an honest and loyal guy, even if he can put his foot in his mouth more often than one might like.

Btw, Sherrod Brown is a great guy. ;)

I miss Ohio politics. There's not much to do in California except raise money.

I have to ask, what do you actually think about Obama. What do you think about him as a man, as a president, and his legacy? I always enjoy reading your novels :chuckle:
 
I have to ask, what do you actually think about Obama. What do you think about him as a man, as a president, and his legacy? I always enjoy reading your novels :chuckle:

:chuckle:

If I could sum up my view on Obama, it'd be in a single word: disappointed.

That's not to say that I blame Obama, entirely. I don't, and I don't think that'd be a fair assessment of him as a person, but instead, I think that's the only contextual way I can frame his accomplishments as President while also putting those accomplishments into the context of the expectations coming out of the campaign.

I think the campaign, and the hope and change that was promised was much larger than what was delivered; and I don't say that meaning it was out of his reach, I say that in the sense that he had a moment of opportunity to bring the country together - and hold it together - and he ultimately failed to do so.

I realize that the vast majority of the blame does indeed fall on the Republicans for refusing not only to work with the President to pass any form of compromise bills to move either their parties' agenda forward, but more astonishingly, in their obstructionist behavior over the past 5 years.

I'm not a fan of false equivalence, as you probably know, and think it's important to cast blame where it is due, and most of that blame does fall onto the shoulders of the Republican Party.

However, with that said, the President has stumbled in so many areas that are primarily under his direct control, that it's impossible to overlook.

As we've discussed in the Iraq/Migration threads, I'm not an advocate for expanding U.S. involvement in the Middle East, but @King Stannis' argument about the failings of U.S. foreign policy in the region is not only compelling, it's pretty damning of the administrations inability to conduct and project a consistent presence there.

The Administration's decision to use the Democratic super-majority to promote Obamacare, rather than the national infrastructure programs these candidates are presently running on.

The Democrats had an early opportunity to pass a 21st century New Deal and squandered it on the ACA. I think that was a strategic mistake as it allowed the Republicans to rally conservatives behind a unified front. Had the administration instead used that opportunity to create millions of jobs, as was promised, there would have been less of a compelling narrative to form the Tea Party which caused the obstructionism in the first place.

Beyond that, the doubling down on the Patriot Act and the NDAA, the failure to close Gitmo, and really the inability to get his agenda through Congress can't leave any objective person, I think, with an impression other than disappointment.

Most of Obama's agenda was not and never will be accomplished; again, largely due to Republicans, but also due to Obama's own failings as President. He failed to understand the political dynamic that was unfolding with the emergence of the Tea Party; he failed to understand the economy was still the most pressing issue and that it was not the time for the ACA (not without the votes); and he was not willing to use the nuclear option, or even the threat thereof, to pass a more robust health care bill which would have benefited millions of Americans.

Obama tended to negotiate with himself, being an intellectual and presupposing the argument of the Republicans; he would come to the table already too near the middle not realizing he was dealing with folks that had absolutely no intention whatsoever of allowing him a political victory.

For 5 years, Obama appealed to the intellect and patriotism of the House Republicans, hoping to reach some compromise. From the Grand Bargain, to immigration reform, to mass incarceration; Obama reached across the aisle repeatedly trying to find someone, anyone, to make a deal with.

If things had been different who knows, but with John Boehner constantly fearing for his job, being threatened repeatedly, as Speaker (and they finally got him), there was no one on the other side who had the courage or political clout to make a deal. So, for political expediency, the House Leadership felt their only option was obstructionism, regardless of the cost.

That strategy, by the Congress, has defined Obama's Presidency for better or worse.

Apologists might view things a bit more favorably, but I'm not sure how one can walk away from these past eight years and think this is how government should operate.

As to Barack Obama the man, well, he's a good human being as far as I know - but I don't know him personally. My aunt knows him well, they were colleagues for years, and she speaks highly of him. Everyone that knows Obama loves him, from what I'm told.

I would just say that looking back, I think Obama would've done things differently had he known how this would all play out. I think he either lacked the foresight, or was simply too naive to understand what he was up against; and that's what the Clinton's warned him about since they had to deal with it first hand.

I think it speaks volumes that so many in the Senate leadership today and in former leadership have stated that Obamacare will be Barack's legacy, but it was also his biggest blunder. Not because the ACA is a bad idea in principle, but because it wasn't well thought out, implemented, nor was it what the American people voted for.

Democrats should have focused 100% of their attention on their economic plans first, disarming the Republicans arguments preemptively, and passed healthcare reform afterwards; even if it meant debating most of the bill behind closed doors.

Charles Schumer, the next Senate leader for the Democrats, has stated as much on several occasions. As much as I dislike the man, I can't help but agree with him.
 
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:chuckle:

If I could sum up my view on Obama, it'd be in a single word: disappointed.

That's not to say that I blame Obama, entirely. I don't, and I don't think that'd be a fair assessment of him as a person, but instead, I think that's the only contextual way I can frame his accomplishments as President while also putting those accomplishments into the context of the expectations coming out of the campaign.

I think the campaign, and the hope and change that was promised was much larger than what was delivered; and I don't say that meaning it was out of his reach, I say that in the sense that he had a moment of opportunity to bring the country together - and hold it together - and he ultimately failed to do so.

I realize that the vast majority of the blame does indeed fall on the Republicans for refusing not only to work with the President to pass any form of compromise bills to move either their parties' agenda forward, but more astonishingly, in their obstructionist behavior over the past 5 years.

I'm not a fan of false equivalence, as you probably know, and think it's important to cast blame where it is due, and most of that blame does fall onto the shoulders of the Republican Party.

However, with that said, the President has stumbled in so many areas that are primarily under his direct control, that it's impossible to overlook.

As we've discussed in the Iraq/Migration threads, I'm not an advocate for expanding U.S. involvement in the Middle East, but @King Stannis' argument about the failings of U.S. foreign policy in the region is not only compelling, it's pretty damning of the administrations inability to conduct and project a consistent presence there.

The Administration's decision to use the Democratic super-majority to promote Obamacare, rather than the national infrastructure programs these candidates are presently running on.

The Democrats had an early opportunity to pass a 21st century New Deal and squandered it on the ACA. I think that was a strategic mistake as it allowed the Republicans to rally conservatives behind a unified front. Had the administration instead used that opportunity to create millions of jobs, as was promised, there would have been less of a compelling narrative to form the Tea Party which caused the obstructionism in the first place.

Beyond that, the doubling down on the Patriot Act and the NDAA, the failure to close Gitmo, and really the inability to get his agenda through Congress can't leave any objective person, I think, with an impression other than disappointment.

Most of Obama's agenda was not and never will be accomplished; again, largely due to Republicans, but also due to Obama's own failings as President. He failed to understand the political dynamic that was unfolding with the emergence of the Tea Party; he failed to understand the economy was still the most pressing issue and that it was not the time for the ACA (not without the votes); and he was not willing to use the nuclear option, or even the threat thereof, to pass a more robust health care bill which would have benefited millions of Americans.

Obama tended to negotiate with himself, being an intellectual and presupposing the argument of the Republicans; he would come to the table already too near the middle not realizing he was dealing with folks that had absolutely no intention whatsoever of allowing him a political victory.

For 5 years, Obama appealed to the intellect and patriotism of the House Republicans, hoping to reach some compromise. From the Grand Bargain, to immigration reform, to mass incarceration; Obama reached across the aisle repeatedly trying to find someone, anyone, to make a deal with.

If things had been different who knows, but with John Boehner constantly fearing for his job, being threatened repeatedly, as Speaker (and they finally got him), there was no one on the other side who had the courage or political clout to make a deal. So, for political expediency, the House Leadership felt their only option was obstructionism, regardless of the cost.

That strategy, by the Congress, has defined Obama's Presidency for better or worse.

Apologists might view things a bit more favorably, but I'm not sure how one can walk away from these past eight years and think this is how government should operate.

As to Barack Obama the man, well, he's a good human being as far as I know - but I don't know him personally. My aunt knows him well, they were colleagues for years, and she speaks highly of him. Everyone that knows Obama loves him, from what I'm told.

I would just say that looking back, I think Obama would've done things differently had he known how this would all play out. I think he either lacked the foresight, or was simply too naive to understand what he was up against; and that's what the Clinton's warned him about since they had to deal with it first hand.

I think it speaks volumes that so many in the Senate leadership today and in former leadership have stated that Obamacare will be Barack's legacy, but it was also his biggest blunder. Not because the ACA is a bad idea in principle, but because it wasn't well thought out, implemented, nor was it what the American people voted for.

Democrats should have focused 100% of their attention on their economic plans first, disarming the Republicans arguments preemptively, and passed healthcare reform afterwards; even if it meant debating most of the bill behind closed doors.

Charles Schumer, the next Senate leader for the Democrats, has stated as much on several occasions. As much as I dislike the man, I can't help but agree with him.

I agree with everything here.

I think Obama and the democrats thought that the Stimulus was enough to fix the economy, rather than just stem the tide. Iirc, the republicans started beating the drum about the national debt around then and so I think they just decided to move on to next item on their agenda.

As for infrastructure, that's become such a massive problem that I honestly don't know how we'll possibly get the money through our broken congress any time soon regardless of how many candidates talk about the need for it.
 
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I agree with everything here.

I think Obama and the democrats thought that the Stimulus was enough to fix the economy, rather than just stem the tide. Iirc, the republicans started beating the drum about the national debt around then and so I think they just decided to move on to next item on their agenda.

As for infrastructure, that's become such a massive problem that I honestly don't know how we'll possibly get the money through our broken congress any time soon regardless of how many candidates talk about the need for it.

Too bad the stimulus didn't spend more on infrastructure, and less on funneling money to state governments so they wouldn't have to cut/furlough all those AFSCME members.

Out of the $800B in the stimulus, a grand total of $30B billion actually went to transportation infrastructure projects. As opposed to $78B on clean energy projects....

That bill was written entirely by Democrats, so if they could only find $30B out of that massive total to spend on infrastructure, that's hardly the fault of the Republicans.

You'd figure that somewhere in that stimulus, we could have found money for that border fence. Lots of construction jobs, and we'd actually have something concrete to show for our $800b rather than the bupkis we actually have to show for it now.
 
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I was hoping for some sort of response from my post after the debate, I'll post it again here with a slight edit along with my followup post.

I had a couple of problems with him (Sanders) from the debate (my first time seeing him).

In one part it sounded like he used the terms top 1% and billionaires interchangeably. Households who earn $400k/year are the top 1%, that's a long, long way from being a billionaire.

This gets even worse when he talks about lifting the cap on social security taxes. He also framed that at millionaires and billionaires. But the cap is at 118k. That's a heck of a long way from billionaires. The income tax rate itself climbed from the 28% at 118k to 39.6% at just over $413k (for single filers). The social security rate is 6.2% and then the employer pays another 6.2%. Is the employer still going to have to match beyond the 118k? And the reason for the cap is people don't get social security benefits for salary they earn above that cap. Is that going to change as well?

The whole idea of raising the minimum wage to $15/hour is bad and would wreck our economy.

When you combine these two, companies will see salaries as much as double on their lowest paid unskilled employees and see their expenses for their most skilled employees also raise by 6.2%. How are they going to pay for that?

It'll be some combination of

Lay people off
Cut salaries of the middle class workers
Raise prices
Go out of business
Move Jobs overseas

This is a global economy. America needs more successful businesses to compete and grow the economy.

To follow up on the social security tax thing. A self employed person in California who is in the top tax bracket would end up paying about 68% of their incremental income in taxes if the social security tax law is changed. And Sanders doesn't just want to make the social security change, he wants to raise other taxes on them. There's only 32% left to go after.

One point to add that I didn't mention before, I hate the whole idea of portraying the people who grow the economy and create jobs as some sort of enemy. Nobody complains when an athlete makes $100 million, but there is outrage when the CEO of major company makes that kind of money. Ultimately who really has the more important job?

Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, etc. These companies aren't just huge american companies, they are huge global companies. At a scale never seen before. Of course the people in charge, including the founders, are going to make a lot of money. Why are our our leaders complaining about their success and their rewards for that success like it's a problem that needs to be corrected? Are we somehow better off when that money goes to the Samsungs and Sonys of the world?
 
Another question I have is when these candidates talk about infrastructure, does that include the internet? There could be a strong economic benefit to bringing affordable (or free, there is no monthly fee to use your driveway to access roads) very high speed internet into everyone's home where outbound speed is as fast as inbound speed and without restrictions on using that bandwidth for things like web servers.
 
It'll be some combination of

Lay people off
Cut salaries of the middle class workers
Raise prices
Go out of business
Move Jobs overseas

Those are just details....

Service industries will see the price increases and layoffs. Manufacturing will go out of business or move overseas. And everyone's money will be worth less because goods and services will be more expensive. That will hit middle/working class people the hardest.

One point to add that I didn't mention before, I hate the whole idea of portraying the people who grow the economy and create jobs as some sort of enemy. Nobody complains when an athlete makes $100 million, but there is outrage when the CEO of major company makes that kind of money. Ultimately who really has the more important job?

Excellent point.

People sneer at the "suits", who likely worked their asses off in college and grad school, work 60 hours a week, and will probably do so for 35-40 years, maybe pulling down 150-200 if they do well. They're the enemy.

But that 22 year old who sings or plays a game for a living, making millions of dollars a year, is a pop culture icon. Their ruminations on social issues or anything else that crosses their mind will be lapped up by hordes of Twitter followers as if it were the gospel.

Nothing really wrong with the latter in isolation, but when it is combined with bitter resentment of those who've achieved through means other than entertainment, it is indicative of screwed-up values, and ignorance of what actually makes the world work.
 
Another question I have is when these candidates talk about infrastructure, does that include the internet? There could be a strong economic benefit to bringing affordable (or free, there is no monthly fee to use your driveway to access roads) very high speed internet into everyone's home where outbound speed is as fast as inbound speed and without restrictions on using that bandwidth for things like web servers.

I don't really see the inherent productivity increase from enabling more people to stream entertainment and play lightning fast games, which is the reality of what that really means for most people.

If it really will lead to that much greater efficiencies for some folks, them those greater efficiencies ought to enable them to pay for it.

The analogy to roads just isn't accurate. We must have roads to physically move goods and resources, including workers. That is not true of bringing free, ultra high speed internet into everyone's home.
 
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Another question I have is when these candidates talk about infrastructure, does that include the internet? There could be a strong economic benefit to bringing affordable (or free, there is no monthly fee to use your driveway to access roads) very high speed internet into everyone's home where outbound speed is as fast as inbound speed and without restrictions on using that bandwidth for things like web servers.
I can only imagine how bad a government ran internet would be and the downtime. A government communications department that has no incentive to be competent would make everyone miss TWC and Comcast.
 
I can only imagine how bad a government ran internet would be and the downtime. A government communications department that has no incentive to be competent would make everyone miss TWC and Comcast.

They wouldn't have to run the whole thing to build the infrastructure required to improve bandwidth and affordability. Originally the government designed and built the entire internet and designed it's protocols (TCP/IP) that we still use today.
 
Too bad the stimulus didn't spend more on infrastructure, and less on funneling money to state governments so they wouldn't have to cut/furlough all those AFSCME members.

Out of the $800B in the stimulus, a grand total of $30B billion actually went to transportation infrastructure projects. As opposed to $78B on clean energy projects....

That bill was written entirely by Democrats, so if they could only find $30B out of that massive total to spend on infrastructure, that's hardly the fault of the Republicans.

You'd figure that somewhere in that stimulus, we could have found money for that border fence. Lots of construction jobs, and we'd actually have something concrete to show for our $800b rather than the bupkis we actually have to show for it now.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/time-fix-americas-infrastructure-heres-start/

“The grades in 2013 ranged from a high of B- for solid waste to a low of D- for inland waterways and levees,” the society wrote in the 2013 report, which is issued every four years. Things got a bit better, but not by much. “Solid waste, drinking water, wastewater, roads, and bridges all saw incremental improvements, and rail jumped from a C- to a C+. No categories saw a decline in grade this year.” Bringing it all up to current standards will be a massive, and massively expensive, undertaking akin to the construction of the interstate highway system. At the bottom line, the US would have to invest $3.6 trillion to bring it all up to snuff by 2020.

So even if they had spent the whole thing on infrastructure they would still have only completed approx. 1/3 of the work needed to fix all the shit that's broken in this country.

As for spending on renewable energy, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Investing in companies that go under soon after is though. I think it would have been much smarter to build a giant solar array in the SW or a bunch of wind farms or both.

As for building a wall, if we had done that already we would have lost the chance for Trump to bless us with his glory...
 
Another question I have is when these candidates talk about infrastructure, does that include the internet? There could be a strong economic benefit to bringing affordable (or free, there is no monthly fee to use your driveway to access roads) very high speed internet into everyone's home where outbound speed is as fast as inbound speed and without restrictions on using that bandwidth for things like web servers.

Laying fiber optic cable all over the place is definitely a need, and if the government did it we would be able to turn the tables on the phone/cable companies that laid the phone lines way back in the day and control them to this day. Paying to lay the lines would create jobs in the present and would provide money in the future as we lease them to the ISPs that will need to lease them as customers demand faster, more reliable connections.

Although allowing Google Fiber to destroy Comcast and Time Warner would be fun to watch as well.
 
http://www.wired.com/2015/01/time-fix-americas-infrastructure-heres-start/

At the bottom line, the US would have to invest $3.6 trillion to bring it all up to snuff by 2020.

So even if they had spent the whole thing on infrastructure they would still have only completed approx. 1/3 of the work needed to fix all the shit that's broken in this country.

True. And if the Obama and the Democrats in Congress has actually done that, then I could see bitching about Republicans. But Democrats had absolute control over this $800B, which was outside of normal spending and representing a windfall opportunity to spend, and spent less than 4% on roads and bridges.

Why not point the finger at them?
 
I was hoping for some sort of response from my post after the debate, I'll post it again here with a slight edit along with my followup post.

I had a couple of problems with him (Sanders) from the debate (my first time seeing him).

In one part it sounded like he used the terms top 1% and billionaires interchangeably. Households who earn $400k/year are the top 1%, that's a long, long way from being a billionaire.

?

To me I think your getting hung up, the tax line will be set by dollars not the 1% per se.
 

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