2016 Presidential Race AND POLL

[gourimoko]

For anyone and everyone who gets a high school diploma? No.

I'm ok with a program that allows students to demonstrate that they have both the desire and ability to take advantage of a college education to receive government subsidies. I'm not sure what form that takes, but there should be some achievement/dedication based barrier of entry that filters out those who only go to college because society tells them to. Too many people aimlessly head into a very costly education because they believe it's the only way to get ahead and the money is made available to them. It's not, and frankly many high school graduates would be better off heading into various trade skills.

So to answer your question: in some cases, yes.

Then you and I are in complete agreement.

Those capable and willing should be paid for and those who aren't should be encouraged to do something else.

College is definitely not for everyone.





...hint: Sanders 2016...

 

[Jack Brickman]

For anyone and everyone who gets a high school diploma? No.

I'm ok with a program that allows students to demonstrate that they have both the desire and ability to take advantage of a college education to receive government subsidies. I'm not sure what form that takes, but there should be some achievement/dedication based barrier of entry that filters out those who only go to college because society tells them to. Too many people aimlessly head into a very costly education because they believe it's the only way to get ahead and the money is made available to them. It's not, and frankly many high school graduates would be better off heading into various trade skills.

So to answer your question: in some cases, yes.

I mean, are we assuming that colleges wouldn't still have entry requirements to get in? I don't see why that would change. You'd still have to do well enough in high school to get in to the better colleges.

And that's not even getting into the difference between public and private schools.

 

[natedagg]

I mean, are we assuming that colleges wouldn't still have entry requirements to get in? I don't see why that would change. You'd still have to do well enough in high school to get in to the better colleges.

And that's not even getting into the difference between public and private schools.

If there's a blank check from the govt, requirements will change, prices will go up, and/or class sizes will increase.

All the govt will do is stifle innovation. The next education breakthrough will be online learning. It's really already here. We need classes to teach the basics, but after that, specialization can be learned so quickly thru modules online, and students can be grouped without proximity, by subject and ability, since collaboration is a great skill.

And we should drop math after algebra for computer science and coding, history could be SO much better (less wrote memorization), English should branch out to: debate, creative writing, English history/literature, and then everyone should have to solve one fucking problem. Just do ONE thing in HS that isn't just laid out for you to memorize.
/rant

 

[gourimoko]

If there's a blank check from the govt, requirements will change, prices will go up, and/or class sizes will increase.

The data from Europe suggests the opposite is true though, natedagg. I think that's important to consider. However, I wholeheartedly agree with @MRMsix6 's point that we shouldn't have 90% of kids going to college; that's absurd. A system like Germany, that reforms education from middle school on to provide a skill/trade is a very good model.

All the govt will do is stifle innovation.

Why do you think this? Government is often the root cause of innovation, especially in academia. When government stops spending money, the most advanced research and development programs tend to shut down.

The next education breakthrough will be online learning. It's really already here. We need classes to teach the basics, but after that, specialization can be learned so quickly thru modules online, and students can be grouped without proximity, by subject and ability, since collaboration is a great skill.

When I was earning my masters at University of Hawaii, one of the things I did was teach undergrad students math and astronomy as an assistant instructor. To say that online education is the wave of the future, I think, ignores the fact that most people are not efficient at self-teaching and self-learning. Many people need to be coaxed, through various methods, into not only learning various skills but even to conceptualize specific problems.

I don't think you can really transition to a predominantly online educational system and expect equal or better results.

And we should drop math after algebra for computer science and coding,

I... disagree. Call me biased, but I think math is logic and logic is the essence of structured programming and problem solving. If you are an excellent programmer, you're probably have an aptitude for math and logic. I think the reverse is also true.

history could be SO much better (less wrote memorization),

Learning history is inherently memorization.

English should branch out to: debate, creative writing, English history/literature,

So long as literature comes first... I learned so much reading what others have said long before I was born, rather than opening my mouth and blurting out whatever I felt. High schoolers learning to debate is useful for learning critical thinking and articulation; but there should be equal time listening to the wisdom found in great works of literature.

and then everyone should have to solve one fucking problem. Just do ONE thing in HS that isn't just laid out for you to memorize.
/rant

I agree with you in general though. The way high school is structured is too oriented towards memorization solely with the goal of passing a test. That's unfortunate. Instead of teach concepts, they are teaching the skill of short-term memory retention with or without ever understanding the material.

 

[Kyrieville]

Instead of teach concepts, they are teaching the skill of short-term memory retention with or without ever understanding the material.

This. It's so much easier and less time consuming to understand things than to memorize material anyways. When I first started college, I tried to memorize my way to earning an A. I succeeded sometimes, often earning Bs and an occasional C. I had an aha moment and things started clicking. I realized the error of my ways. I'd study for a week straight and struggle to earn an A when I first started school. By the time I finished my masters, I'd barely study for a day and to earn an A in advanced chemistry courses. I utilized the same skills in pharmacy school and finished top of my class with a lot of effort, but very little compared to the effort I put in when I first started school.

Although I did very well in high school, I wish I was taught these skills at a much earlier age, I might have had some spare time during undergrad.

 

[Sebastian]

I'm not sure I'm for this rank wafting of socialism in this thread regarding higher education. To believe that anything should be done to better the people, rather than make as much money as possible off them, is contrary to the spirit of America.

Also, sheeple, there is obviously no better system. For example, behold the flaming wreck that is education in the Nordic nations.

 

[Phills14]

I'm not sure I agree with the free college education thing. College is simply not meant for everyone. It never was set up for that nor should it be in the future. To quote Judge Smails, "The world needs ditch diggers too"

 

[SalvadoranCavsfan]

And then those who benefit from the "free" education are the ones who go on to get jobs and pay the taxes that support the higher education of future young adults. It's effectively a system where everyone wins. Yeah, you'll presumably have to pay higher taxes, but I assume the majority of college students would trade an extra couple percent coming out of their paycheck for the crippling student loan debt most of them would have otherwise.

I just graduated college in May, and I can't tell you how grateful I am to *only* have 20k worth of student loans. It's ridiculous how people have to cripple there future and saddle themselves with ridiculous amounts of debt in order to try and scratch out a living.

 

[The Oi]

Whatever it takes to gear people towards being welders, elevator repair technicians, and other relatively high paying technical jobs INSTEAD of going to college, I am on board with.

Maybe these guys spend their careers making $50-$60k, but over time most of them end up at $80-$90k. If they have the mind for it, these guys can set up businesses of their own and once they do that, they can easily make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

I know four different men who left HS or did not attend college at all that are top 1% of society who simply learned a specialized skill and developed a good business sense over the years. One literally worked on cars at a rental car service and over decades of staying at one company became the COO there.

Another one became certified in hazardous waste management, eventually worked his way to the top to take his company public and is now a consultant in that industry. He literally makes millions of dollars per year.

The third is a commercial plumber who drives a fucking Lamborghini, owns an incredible house and knocks out $7-$8k projects in 48 hours twice a week and lands some of the much larger contracts around town due to minimal competition.

The fourth guy is a little different, did not develop a specialized skill but is a good example of a person who did not need college to be successful. He went to work as a stockboy at a commercial construction supply company with a storefront, became a salesperson, knocked out the retail side of their business, focused on landing major accounts over the phone and then bought the business. He makes half a mil now.

Teach people technical skills and give them the business skills to become sole props and you will INSTANTLY improve our economy and pull dead weight out of our education system. Frankly, I was dead weight in college even though my grades were decent. I wish I'd have done what these guys did. Now the rest of the US and I are playing catch-up while making varying amounts of money.

 

[Cassity14]

Whatever it takes to gear people towards being welders, elevator repair technicians, and other relatively high paying technical jobs INSTEAD of going to college, I am on board with.

Maybe these guys spend their careers making $50-$60k, but over time most of them end up at $80-$90k. If they have the mind for it, these guys can set up businesses of their own and once they do that, they can easily make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

I know four different men who left HS or did not attend college at all that are top 1% of society who simply learned a specialized skill and developed a good business sense over the years. One literally worked on cars at a rental car service and over decades of staying at one company became the COO there.

Another one became certified in hazardous waste management, eventually worked his way to the top to take his company public and is now a consultant in that industry. He literally makes millions of dollars per year.

The third is a commercial plumber who drives a fucking Lamborghini, owns an incredible house and knocks out $7-$8k projects in 48 hours twice a week and lands some of the much larger contracts around town due to minimal competition.

The fourth guy is a little different, did not develop a specialized skill but is a good example of a person who did not need college to be successful. He went to work as a stockboy at a commercial construction supply company with a storefront, became a salesperson, knocked out the retail side of their business, focused on landing major accounts over the phone and then bought the business. He makes half a mil now.

Teach people technical skills and give them the business skills to become sole props and you will INSTANTLY improve our economy and pull dead weight out of our education system. Frankly, I was dead weight in college even though my grades were decent. I wish I'd have done what these guys did. Now the rest of the US and I are playing catch-up while making varying amounts of money.

I agree. Let's also weed out the bullshit college majors that don't have a tangible real-world application and only exist to be enrolled in by Daddy's Girls looking for their MRS. degree anyway.

 

[Kyrieville]

I agree. Let's also weed out the bullshit college majors that don't have a tangible real-world application and only exist to be enrolled in by Daddy's Girls looking for their MRS. degree anyway.

I am ok with keeping those majors around, but public student loans should not pay for them. Bad investment for the taxpayer. The school can offer lower tuition rates for those courses and/or offer scholarships to attract people.

 

[Cavatt]

Saddling people with debt as soon as they get out of college makes people take secure jobs instead of risking entrepreneurial enterprises that make everyone more money. Oh well

 

[Lee]

I agree with you that it isn't "free." We're paying for it. But don't you think college education is something society should pay for?

If someone is earning a masters degree isn't it worthwhile for society that they succeed in that endeavor?

I am pretty left when it comes to social ideas, but my fear is making school all the way to grad school free would encourage students even more to take worthless degrees. Home many thousands of people with masters in social work or art history does society need?

If "free" school is instituted, then the degree's available need to be limited. Force the kids to get degree's that are good for society, computer degrees, teaching, engineering, nurse practitioner, not a bunch of worthless degrees that lead to jobs in retail.

 

[theSwayze]

Whatever it takes to gear people towards being welders, elevator repair technicians, and other relatively high paying technical jobs INSTEAD of going to college, I am on board with.

Maybe these guys spend their careers making $50-$60k, but over time most of them end up at $80-$90k. If they have the mind for it, these guys can set up businesses of their own and once they do that, they can easily make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.

I know four different men who left HS or did not attend college at all that are top 1% of society who simply learned a specialized skill and developed a good business sense over the years. One literally worked on cars at a rental car service and over decades of staying at one company became the COO there.

Another one became certified in hazardous waste management, eventually worked his way to the top to take his company public and is now a consultant in that industry. He literally makes millions of dollars per year.

The third is a commercial plumber who drives a fucking Lamborghini, owns an incredible house and knocks out $7-$8k projects in 48 hours twice a week and lands some of the much larger contracts around town due to minimal competition.

The fourth guy is a little different, did not develop a specialized skill but is a good example of a person who did not need college to be successful. He went to work as a stockboy at a commercial construction supply company with a storefront, became a salesperson, knocked out the retail side of their business, focused on landing major accounts over the phone and then bought the business. He makes half a mil now.

Teach people technical skills and give them the business skills to become sole props and you will INSTANTLY improve our economy and pull dead weight out of our education system. Frankly, I was dead weight in college even though my grades were decent. I wish I'd have done what these guys did. Now the rest of the US and I are playing catch-up while making varying amounts of money.

I'm with you in emphasis on trade skills. I also like the idea that those same people could have take advantage of free business finance and marketing classes in night classes and gotten where they are sooner and easier.

 

[The Oi]

I don't have a problem with people getting degreess in whatever the hell they choose. If you're going to pay for degrees, you should pay for all of them.

If someone wants to major in art, philosophy, English and other degrees that don't have reputations for money just by virtue of having the degree, by all means. If that's what someone's passionate about, I have no problem with them doing it and it being paid for by the public if everyone else's degree is being paid for by the public. Hell, I've made more money in my career than a lot of business and finance majors and nothing I do currently applies to my English major. Was the investment on my degree itself good? It would appear to be so on paper, but the reality is that the only meaning the degree has had for me is that it got me positions that required a college degree and I've produced in them.

What I'm saying is that if you're going to pay for degrees, cover your ass and make sure not EVERYONE is getting one. I'm looking at this from a macro POV rather than an individual one.