2017-2018 Boston Celtics: No Irving! No Hayward! No Brooklyn Pick!

[dark2332]

I totally disagree with you and Gour on Harden vs. Kyrie. But I liked your post because it is moving this debate into a resolution. For a few weeks now this thread has been unreadable. Let's clean it up from here on out.

Fair enough.

This was quite some time ago, when discussing MVP candidates and if I recall, it transitioned into a playoff basketball discussion. We talked about fits on this team, and we were talking about Westbrook and Harden's scoring efficiency versus massive opportunity.

I know you're somewhat bullish on Harden. Reasonably so. He's a great player and he's having a great year. 28/8/11? That's insane.

That's also a reflection of how often he has the ball. There's basically a rule that no shot can be made unless he's touched it. He's averaging a shade under 6 turnovers per game to prove how much it's in his hands. My argument, which seems crazy out of context, and I would guess Gour's as well, took into account that Kyrie is younger so it's hard to project where he will be, and the fact that Harden couldn't dominate the ball here as he does in Houston. Here, that player is LeBron James, and he's usually better at it.

Therefore, playoff basketball taking into account the opportunities Kyrie is given, we projected that he fits and will fit in the future, better in this role.

 

[dark2332]

Oh I'm not saying they are wrong. I love Kyrie. I just think Harden facilitating a LeBron team would be one of the sexiest, most dangerous offenses in a long time. I think it's one of those things that is up for debate. I would just prefer Harden. He's one of three guys that I would say that for.

Not to get off topic, but I'm curious who your other two are.

I can assume one, curious on the second.

 

[Jordan]

Fair enough.

This was quite some time ago, when discussing MVP candidates and if I recall, it transitioned into a playoff basketball discussion. We talked about fits on this team, and we were talking about Westbrook and Harden's scoring efficiency versus massive opportunity.

I know you're somewhat bullish on Harden. Reasonably so. He's a great player and he's having a great year. 28/8/11? That's insane.

That's also a reflection of how often he has the ball. There's basically a rule that no shot can be made unless he's touched it. He's averaging a shade under 6 turnovers per game to prove how much it's in his hands. My argument, which seems crazy out of context, and I would guess Gour's as well, took into account that Kyrie is younger so it's hard to project where he will be, and the fact that Harden couldn't dominate the ball here as he does in Houston. Here, that player is LeBron James, and he's usually better at it.

Therefore, playoff basketball taking into account the opportunities Kyrie is given, we projected that he fits and will fit in the future, better in this role.

Yeah, I totally accept all of this. For example, I love Westbrook and think he is arguably the second best player in the NBA. But I would never want him on a LeBron-led Cavs team. Ever, in one million years.

I think Chris Paul is very much ahead of Irving right now. But, given the next year or two, injuries, and general aging, I would rather have Kyrie for the long-term.

I just think Harden gives the Cavs what Kyrie does in terms of being able to score from anywhere, ability to run the pick-and-roll, etc. Plus he has a knack for facilitating similar to Steve Nash. I just feel like that would work really well with LeBron and Love.

But still, if Morey called up Griffin tomorrow and said "Harden for Kyrie, you in?" I don't know that Griff would say yes, and I am not so sure if he would be correct or incorrect in that assessment. Long-term, I think Kyrie has the potential to be one of the greatest scorers of all-time. I don't think Harden has that potential.

It's a really tough question for me. Personally, I would take the trade, but I would also not be feeling 100% confident about doing so.

 

[Ohio]

Someone already mentioned Harden's playoff struggles in his career, but felt like the 2012 Finals should be pointed out in particular because that performance was honestly tragic. He was a 6th man yet he managed to sabotage the Thunder in that series.

 

[TitleTown]

Yeah, I totally accept all of this. For example, I love Westbrook and think he is arguably the second best player in the NBA. But I would never want him on a LeBron-led Cavs team. Ever, in one million years.

I think Chris Paul is very much ahead of Irving right now. But, given the next year or two, injuries, and general aging, I would rather have Kyrie for the long-term.

I just think Harden gives the Cavs what Kyrie does in terms of being able to score from anywhere, ability to run the pick-and-roll, etc. Plus he has a knack for facilitating similar to Steve Nash. I just feel like that would work really well with LeBron and Love.

But still, if Morey called up Griffin tomorrow and said "Harden for Kyrie, you in?" I don't know that Griff would say yes, and I am not so sure if he would be correct or incorrect in that assessment. Long-term, I think Kyrie has the potential to be one of the greatest scorers of all-time. I don't think Harden has that potential.

It's a really tough question for me. Personally, I would take the trade, but I would also not be feeling 100% confident about doing so.

I would NOT take the trade, but not because of stats or individual play.

I wouldn't take the trade because we would be punting on this season. Just like the Warriors will likely struggle in the playoffs this season more so than last. Super teams nearly always struggle in their first year.

 

[Jordan]

Not to get off topic, but I'm curious who your other two are.

I can assume one, curious on the second.

Durant and Kawhi. Harden is the only PG I'd trade Kyrie for. A guy like Westbrook, while better, does not fit well within the team. I don't buy that Isaiah Thomas is the better player. Wall is just as inconsistent as Kyrie. And while CP3 and Curry may be better right now, I think Kyrie will overtake both of them sooner than later. The only guy you could argue, in addition to Harden, would be Lowry. But the only Lowry argument I could make would be based off of this regular season alone, as he's doing things in the pick-and-roll that I didn't think were possible for a player like him. Still, I'd probably stick with the Angel I know.

Otherwise I'd rather have long wings who could wreck havoc in multiple ways. Durant's shooting ability would let LeBron do what Harden is doing in Houston: move to a complete PG. And in that role I think LeBron would be arguably the greatest PG of all-time.

A team with both Kawhi and LeBron playing defense is sexy af to me. I think that team - with Tristan as center - would be the best defensive team of all-time. We'd probably have to trade Love for a PG, which I'd be fine with, and that team would turn some heads.

 

[TyGuy]

@thedarkness2332 That quote wasn't from a long time ago. It was posted on December 23, so not even a month ago.

 

[Jordan]

I would NOT take the trade, but not because of stats or individual play.

I wouldn't take the trade because we would be punting on this season. Just like the Warriors will likely struggle in the playoffs this season more so than last. Super teams nearly always struggle in their first year.

That's fair. I was more thinking about this in a vacuum. But put like that, obviously, these trades are all probably a bit risky.

 

[dark2332]

Durant and Kawhi. Harden is the only PG I'd trade Kyrie for. A guy like Westbrook, while better, does not fit well within the team. I don't buy that Isaiah Thomas is the better player. Wall is just as inconsistent as Kyrie. And while CP3 and Curry may be better right now, I think Kyrie will overtake both of them sooner than later. The only guy you could argue, in addition to Harden, would be Lowry. But the only Lowry argument I could make would be based off of this regular season alone, as he's doing things in the pick-and-roll that I didn't think were possible for a player like him. Still, I'd probably stick with the Angel I know.

Otherwise I'd rather have long wings who could wreck havoc in multiple ways. Durant's shooting ability would let LeBron do what Harden is doing in Houston: move to a complete PG. And in that role I think LeBron would be arguably the greatest PG of all-time.

A team with both Kawhi and LeBron playing defense is sexy af to me. I think that team - with Tristan as center - would be the best defensive team of all-time. We'd probably have to trade Love for a PG, which I'd be fine with, and that team would turn some heads.

I knew Durant, I was curious if the 2nd was Curry.

There's a lot I don't like about him, but he's the best three point shooter of all time and it's hard to argue the fit if he was to play with LeBron.

 

[Jordan]

I knew Durant, I was curious if the 2nd was Curry.

There's a lot I don't like about him, but he's the best three point shooter of all time and it's hard to argue the fit if he was to play with LeBron.

Curry would be the perfect fit next to LeBron for the next year or two. I just don't know how long that lasts. I still think Kyrie's potential is far past that of Curry. He's not there yet, though, obviously.

 

[pinoycavsfan]

Kyrie needs to play better, that is a fact. We'll sre a better cavs team if he gets his bearings back..

 

[dark2332]

@thedarkness2332 That quote wasn't from a long time ago. It was posted on December 23, so not even a month ago.

Ok, I see now. This was from an off-topic discussion in the Tyronn Lue thread, my apologies.

I seemed to recall another comparison in the preseason, I thought, where this was a recurring topic in the Kyrie thread.

I was searching the wrong thread for the discussion.

 

[pinoycavsfan]

Kyrie needs to play better, that is a fact. We'll see a better cavs team if he gets his bearings back..

 

[Tlyons]

Kyrie needs to play better, that is a fact. We'll see a better cavs team if he gets his bearings back..

Enter mind blown gif

Edit: This can also be said for damn near the whole team.

I encourage everyone to give the dude a little time.

He's missed time on the court and is out of sync.

 

[dark2332]

Curry would be the perfect fit next to LeBron for the next year or two. I just don't know how long that lasts. I still think Kyrie's potential is far past that of Curry. He's not there yet, though, obviously.

Clearly this is hypothetical and would never happen. Nor would you want it to.

It's also sacrilegious because Kyrie has owned him in the playoffs and he's younger.

But with LeBron at 32, and our title window being about the next 5-6 years generously, if the Warriors offered Curry for Kyrie, I'd do it in a second before they changed their mind. He's only 4 years older, which fits our title window.

Kyrie may become the better player, and I'd hate myself for giving up my boy, but for the next 3-5 years, there would be no better Batman and Robin fit than James/Curry. If you are starting a team from scratch, I take Kyrie. If they are playing one on one to 11, I take Kyrie. If they are needing one guy to win you a game in the 4th, I take Kyrie.

But pure fit with the best player in the game (James), the best shooter ever, two-time MVP (even if I disagreed) playing off the ball beside LeBron? Analytically, you have to say yes, even if it's giving your soul to the devil and you wake up in the night covered in your own tears.

It'd be like eating most of a pizza by yourself or porking a fatty. You'd feel bad about yourself after, but you would've enjoyed it while it was happening.

I might have to go shower now after typing this. I hate him, but I'd be lying if I said he wasn't a better fit. And that's saying something, because Kyrie is a very good fit.

Now, if you say no to the trade simply out of principle, ignoring all logic... I may not be able to agree with you in my head, but I can damn sure agree with you in my heart.