Addressing the hole at center

[Jack Brickman]

The penalties for going into the luxury tax are much harsher now than they were when we last contended. I'm not saying Gilbert isn't willing to pay a hefty cost for a contender, but even he has his limits.

Remember that the CBA is basically a lock to be renegotiated in three years, which is conveniently before any repeater tax penalties might pop up for us. And seeing as we're unlikely to end up over the tax line this year, we still have another year before we even have to start staring down the repeater tax line.

 

[Splitz]

I actually think Larry Sanders is very attainable if we want him. People are scared off by his personality and contract. But as far as his contract goes, I think he is on a pretty good deal actually. The length of the contract concerns me more than the dollar amount. Just because its 4 years, and its hard to commit for that length of time because we won't know how everything will turn out. And if we want to end up moving him, it might be tough.

But I'm guessing we would even up his value playing beside LeBron. He is making 11 mil a year, and that might sound high, but that is actually a pretty good deal for a center now days, especially a young one. And having him locked up for 4 years at that price could work to our advantage big time if he plays really well.

People were concerned about Dennis Rodman's personality, but he was a huge piece to the Bulls championship runs. I don't even think Larry is that volatile, and you know he will bring it on the court every night.

Tristan and the unguaranteed Jazz contracts actually works for Sanders. Don't even need to include Haywood, but I might anyway just because we aren't going to have room for another 12+ mil player anyway. But if Tristan really plans on getting a pay raise in the 9-10 mil range, I would much rather have Sanders instead. This isn't a trade that would have to be made right now, we can wait on our options. But we really couldn't ask for much more at the center position. I guess we could wait to see if we could possibly get Deandre Jordan in the future, but Sanders is practically the same thing. Just a little more edgy personality.

And if we still had a chance at Deandre (or any other center), we could use Sanders as a trade chip. He has a lot more potential and value then Tristan would ever have. He might play himself into a very high value too being on a championship level team (which we would probably just want to keep him at that). I'm not sure how big the health concerns are, but I'm all for getting him. Good buy low opportunity and perfect for what we need at center.

I'm not sure that Dennis Rodman is a good comparison only because the guy was so messed up from not having any sort of stable family, that his team actually became his family. He was one of the most hard working and dedicated players in the history of the NBA. He sunk all his problems into leaving it all on the floor. Sanders is in no way, shape, or form comparable in this regard so there's really not much to compensate for what he does to a locker room.

 

[batdan]

The penalties for going into the luxury tax are much harsher now than they were when we last contended. I'm not saying Gilbert isn't willing to pay a hefty cost for a contender, but even he has his limits.

It depends how much the Cavs go over the tax, if it's 5/10 million over the tax, they're 7.5/8.75 million or 12.5/13.75 million for repeaters. The other restrictions that come with being a tax paying team can cause some issues, like a smaller MLE, no bi-annual exception, can't offer contracts over 3 three years, we can't do S&T if we end up over the tax apron by 4 million, etc so the Cavs would be wise not do that. Just to be clear the tax is set at 76 million, going over it by 4 million those restrictions apply.

This seems relevant to the Cavs situation, if they plan to resign Delly, Varejao, TT, etc and moving Haywood's salary for a player with a similar salary. They will most likely be paying the tax next year.

Taxpaying teams can take back up to 125% of their outgoing salaries, plus $100,000, no matter how much salary the team is sending away. For example, a taxpaying team trading away $10 million in salaries can acquire one or more replacement players making up to $12.6 million.

This would apply to Haywood's contract and plus the Cavs could aggregate a trade with someone like Joe Harris, etc. to get someone with a larger salary in a trade.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Just remember...Dan Gilbert is going to make a fuckton of money over the next few years. He can afford to pay the tax. Until the first time that Gilbert makes a decision solely based on cutting costs (especially when the team is winning), I'll continue giving him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tripi]

The penalties for going into the luxury tax are much harsher now than they were when we last contended. I'm not saying Gilbert isn't willing to pay a hefty cost for a contender, but even he has his limits.

You're right. I was a little too quick to say, "He won't care." But I imagine he would put up with it for awhile if the team is successful. The repeater tax is a killer though

Let's just make an example:
Love: 20
Lebron: 20
Kyrie: 20
Waiters: 8
Thompson: 8
Sanders: 12
Varejao: 5
+ 7 Min. Contracts

~20 million over the tax line. Adjust it for the tax rate ($3.75 for every $1 over)...and it's about $75 million in penalties. And it would get a lot higher. Fortunately, the salary cap will increase by about 15% in two years so that could soften the blow (assuming they raise the luxury threshold accordingly)

 

[Tripi]

Just remember...Dan Gilbert is going to make a fuckton of money over the next few years. He can afford to pay the tax. Until the first time that Gilbert makes a decision solely based on cutting costs (especially when the team is winning), I'll continue giving him the benefit of the doubt.

This was in my thought process as well. Especially with Lebron returning. I remember Bill Simmons talked about how if teams didn't have a salary cap, they could reasonably pay Lebron $70 million per year and still make money off him

 

[Tripi]

I'm not sure that Dennis Rodman is a good comparison only because the guy was so messed up from not having any sort of stable family, that his team actually became his family. He was one of the most hard working and dedicated players in the history of the NBA. He sunk all his problems into leaving it all on the floor. Sanders is in no way, shape, or form comparable in this regard so there's really not much to compensate for what he does to a locker room.

But the locker room arguments are not an issue. Who has he yelled at in the locker room? Gary Neal, Brandon Jennings, and Monta Ellis. All 3 of those guys had bad attitudes in Milwaukee coupled with poor team play on the court. Sanders isn't exactly a role model, but he was right to question those players

 

[kovanovich]

Varejao and Waiters won't be traded because Lebron likes them and wants them on the team.

Thompson won't be traded because he has the same agent as Lebron James and his going to be overpaid next year as part of Lebron coming to Cleveland.

Trading Brendan Haywood now is shortsighted because the only reason he is here is to trade his huge unguaranteed contract next year, not act a filler for a trade now for some below average 7 footer.

The trade assets we have right now (assuming the Love trade is a done deal) are:

- Grizzlies 1st rounder (1-5 and 15-20 protected for 2015 and 2016)
- John Lucas III - $1,600,000 salary cap hold
- Malcolm Thomas - $948,163 salary cap hold (cannot be traded with any other players until after Sept 22, 2015)
- Joe Harris - $884,879 (cannot be traded until August 23rd, 2014)
- Erik Murphy - $816,482 salary cap hold
- Matthew Dellavedova (unlikely to be traded because he is cheap, quality option as bench guard)

Not a whole lot to work with.

You can take back 150% plus $100,000 of salary that you traded.

So lets say the Cavs put John Lucas III, Erik Murphy and Joe Harris out there in a trade and include the Grizzlies pick as motivation to trade with the Cavs.

You are looking at about $5,052,0415 the Cavs can take in. So, guys like Sanders and Hibbert are out. Cannot afford them at all and the Bucks and Pacers could get way more than that offer from some other team.

You could maybe get a guy like Zaza or Kanter if you included more assets, but why would want to? They don't give us what we need.

There are number C's you could get for this amount:

- Timofey Mozgov $4,700,000
- Samuel Dalembert $4,051,527
- Ian Mahinmi $4,000,000
- Bismack Biyombo $3,900,000 (RFA in 2015)
- Kosta Koufos $3,000,000 (FA in 2015)
- Meyers Leonard $2,317,920
- John Henson $2,000,000
- Alexis Ajinca $981,084
- Kyle O'Quinn $915,243
- Jeff Withey $816,482

I don't think Denver trades Mozgov for that package. I don't think Indy trades Ian Mahinmi at all, since they are reportedly looking to move Hibbert.

Kosta Koufos is a plodding behemoth and not a good fit for what the Cavs are doing. I don't think Leonard, Henson, Ajinca, O'Quinn or Withey are what the Cavs are looking for. They are reported to be looking for veteran big guys. None of those guys will make an impact this year in the playoffs and that is really all we are looking for: a veteran, defensive presence for 2014-2015.

So for me, it comes down to two guys: Samuel Dalembert and Bismack Biyombo.

New York might trade Dalembert for that package (you could even take out Joe Harris) just to acquire the pick. He is only under contract for a year and I don't know what the Knicks are thinking of doing. If they are planning a rebuild, they could definitely move him. If they are trying to make the playoffs, they probably keep him. But he would be perfect: a vet, a defensive presence, only here for one year.

Charlotte didn't use Biyombo very much last year. They may not be looking to trade him, but if they are he fits the criteria as well. He isn't a "vet" per se, but he is an older guy (despite what is listed) and while undersized, he a rim protector for sure. Rebounds well, doesn't need the ball on offense at all, which is fine on this roster. But again, I have no idea is Charlotte would trade him for a pick and guaranteed contracts.

I'm not even sure I love these options though. Are these rentals worth a 1st rounder? You may want to save that pick to get bigger deal done for a center next summer with Brendan Haywood. Maybe make a trade with couple second rounders instead, but all we have is our own now and those will like be in the 50's.

Thanks for this summary. You didn't list Zaza's salary, which at $5.2M is just slightly more than what could be brought back by trading the 3 non-guaranteed Utah guys, assuming they aren't included in the Love deal.

The problem with not making a trade before the season starts is that you would likely end up simply cutting some or all of the Utah guys, which would be a bit of a missed opportunity and would leave you with fewer options for completing a mid-season trade.

You might be overpaying for a center right now compared to what you might be giving up at the deadline. But then again maybe not.

Absolutely agree with you that if Mozgov is not available, Dalembert and Biyombo are the best options of guys who could conceivably be available. Of the two, I think Biyombo is slightly more likely, at least as of now.

I don't know though whether a low basketball IQ type of player who is as limited as he is offensively exactly fits what Griffin/Blatt have in mind. At least, unlike Tristan, he can finish around the basket without getting his shot blocked.

It's been reported by The Bullshit Whisperer that they Cavs have inquired into the availability of a veteran center as well as a younger center, so I wouldn't necessarily rule out the younger guys like Withey and Ajinca. The thing with them is that they make so little that New Orleans isn't exactly incentivized to get rid of them.

The more I think about it, the more I think that maybe one of the bargain basement free agents still out there is still the best option after all. If that doesn't work well enough, you try to piece together enough salary at the deadline to get a guy like Dalembert or another guy we aren't even thinking of. So, say you sign Elton Brand to the minimum for $1.45M plus keep John Lucas (at $1.6M), that would give you $3.045M worth of expirings at the deadline, which coincidentally would be just barely enough to bring back Mozgov in a trade, based on the 150% + $100K rule.

I'm thinking Denver will be out of the playoff picture by then, and it's certainly not at all inconceivable that they would be willing to trade Mozgov at that time.

And if not him, you could get another guy making $4.6M or less, including Biyombo, Dalembert, Mahinmi, or Koufos. (Personally, I'm not a huge Mahinmi fan,)

 

[kovanovich]

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of retaining Lucas (mainly for his salary, but also as the 3rd string PG) and signing Elton Brand -- and it would have to be him because of the 10 year+ minimum salary he would command, or you could sign Jermaine O'Neal if you prefer him -- with the thought of positioning yourself to flip them at the deadline for an upgrade at center.

I've seen no news on Brand, except for Chuck Myron's speculation in a chat this Monday that he would end up in Chicago:

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/08/hoops-rumors-live-chat-4-pm-ct-13.html

4:47 Comment From Trog
How about predicting destinations for the best of the free agent class that's left (Marion, R. Allen, Brand, Sessions, Earl Clark)?

4:52 Marion — Cavs; Allen — retirement; Brand — Bulls; Sessions — Rockets; Clark — Rockets. I had the toughest time finding a team for Clark, since I think there's a decent chance he goes unsigned for training camp.

 

[Fuggles]

But the locker room arguments are not an issue. Who has he yelled at in the locker room? Gary Neal, Brandon Jennings, and Monta Ellis. All 3 of those guys had bad attitudes in Milwaukee coupled with poor team play on the court. Sanders isn't exactly a role model, but he was right to question those players

I think you might need to read more about Sanders.

Sanders wasn't questioning other players, other players were questioning him.

 

[Phills14]

Why is it that Ajinca is a young player while Biyumbo is a vet? Alex has played 4 NBA seasons and sat out another 2 while bismack has played only 3.

They both should be classified as inexperienced and straight up gambles in terms of production.

 

[Derek]

Why is it that Ajinca is a young player while Biyumbo is a vet? Alex has played 4 NBA seasons and sat out another 2 while bismack has played only 3.

They both should be classified as inexperienced and straight up gambles in terms of production.

I'm going to guess that most people forget or didn't know that Ajinca was in the NBA prior to last season. He's 26 and his rookie year was 2008, he's no young pup.

 

[cavfanintexas]

what does Biyumbo really give us that TT doesn't what is the rush we have know idea what kind of shape AV, TT or Waywood will be in until we get to training camp

 

[pl4tinum]

what does Biyumbo really give us that TT doesn't what is the rush we have know idea what kind of shape AV, TT or Waywood will be in until we get to training camp

Shot blocking, basically.

Biyombo had 1.1 blk/g last year, 1.6 for his career. Tristan had 0.4 blk/g last year and 0.8 for his career. Literally double as many blocks.

But Tristan is a better player all around, IMO.

 

[Rimage]

I'm going to guess that most people forget or didn't know that Ajinca was in the NBA prior to last season. He's 26 and his rookie year was 2008, he's no young pup.

I know very little about Ajinca. I don't remember anything in his first stint in the NBA. After doing a little more research on him, he is definitely intriguing. He is definitely a smart player. He makes good passes, knows how to play help defense and has really good mobility for his size. He has a little offense too with a nice jumper and hook in his arsenal. His ability to move, shoot a little and pass would definitely make him a nice fit in Blatt's offense. His cons are that his not very strong and an inconsistent shot blocker. So guys can get deep position on him and he doesn't aggressively challenge shots. Those are kind of the two primary things we are looking for in our backup 5, right? The mobility, shooting and passing are nice, but are just kind of secondary to the post D and rim protection. I don't see him as a great option.

I think what Biyombo gives you is more NBA experience and playoff experience in terms of games played. He is a consistent and ever present shot blocker and he is very strong. He can keep 5's that are much bigger than him out of the paint with his strength, much like Ben Wallace.