Baseball America: Tribe has #5 Farm system

[MoFlo]

Your argument is pretty assinine, MoFlo. Sorry. You are attempting to argue that a trade that returned a Cy Young, a regular All-Star, and a good bigleague 2B for a guy who leaving in a year anyway isn't a great trade? The results of the trade are what the guys the team got in return have done- and that return has been tremendous. How the team has done is a reflection on the team at the time, not on the trade or the individuals returned. I really shouldn't even have to say that but it looks like I have to.

The Colon trade is one of the best trades of the last 25 years period. This is the trade that teams dream of when they deal their stars. That trade has become the benchmark for maximizing out value on a player heading to FA, and is easily one of the top 3 trades this org has ever done.

First of all, don't talk down to me like you're better than me or know more than me about baseball..

Second of all, when did I EVER say it wasn't a great trade?

In fact, I've said NUMEROUS times that it was an AMAZING trade.. do better research..

Third of all, I love Grady & think he's an amazing hitter, but it's frustrating as hell knowing he can be so much better.. his average has fallen each of the past 4 seasons & he strikes out as much as a cleanup hitter, and he needs to learn that he is not one..

You say the results of the trade are what the guys we receive back have done.. OK, right away, Brandon Phillips did absolutely nothing here, and we ended up trading him for nothing, so he technically was a bust for us..

By the way, the debate was if the Colon trade was the best Indians trade of all time, so thanks for agreeing with me on that, by saying it's top 3..

Yes, I know we got all of these guys in 1 trade, and each of the guys I'm about to name, we acquired in separate trades, but with what these guys did in their careers more than makes up for it..

All I'm saying is that you can't compare Grady, Cliff Lee & Brandon Phillips to a Gaylord Perry, Tris Speaker, Early Wynn, Shoeless Joe Jackson, or even Kenny Lofton, all of whom we got for guys who did nothing when they left here..

Not sure how you can say the results of the trade are what the guy we receive back have done & say the Colon trade is better than a trade that got us:

-A pitcher who posted ERA's of 1.92, 3.38, 2.51, and 3.55 with us, while winning 70 games, and won a Cy Young award in his 1st year here..

-A guy who hit .355 for us over the span of 11 years, hit over .380 4 times, and helped us win us a World Series..

-A guy who won 164 games with us (including 4 20 win seasons), had 5 seasons with an ERA below 3.00 for us, & was part of a rotation who many consider the best rotation in MLB history.

-A guy who hit .375 for us (never below .327 & including his rookie season where he hit .408) & is widely considered one of the best hitters of all time.

-A guy who hit .300 for us, is our franchise leader in stolen bases, and helped us get to the World Series. Not to mention many considered him the best lead-off hitter of his time.

 

[7foot3]

First of all, don't talk down to me like you're better than me or know more than me about baseball..

Second of all, when did I EVER say it wasn't a great trade?

In fact, I've said NUMEROUS times that it was an AMAZING trade.. do better research..

Third of all, I love Grady & think he's an amazing hitter, but it's frustrating as hell knowing he can be so much better.. his average has fallen each of the past 4 seasons & he strikes out as much as a cleanup hitter, and he needs to learn that he is not one..

You say the results of the trade are what the guys we receive back have done.. OK, right away, Brandon Phillips did absolutely nothing here, and we ended up trading him for nothing, so he technically was a bust for us..

By the way, the debate was if the Colon trade was the best Indians trade of all time, so thanks for agreeing with me on that, by saying it's top 3..

Yes, I know we got all of these guys in 1 trade, and each of the guys I'm about to name, we acquired in separate trades, but with what these guys did in their careers more than makes up for it..

All I'm saying is that you can't compare Grady, Cliff Lee & Brandon Phillips to a Gaylord Perry, Tris Speaker, Early Wynn, Shoeless Joe Jackson, or even Kenny Lofton, all of whom we got for guys who did nothing when they left here..

Not sure how you can say the results of the trade are what the guy we receive back have done & say the Colon trade is better than a trade that got us:

-A pitcher who posted ERA's of 1.92, 3.38, 2.51, and 3.55 with us, while winning 70 games, and won a Cy Young award in his 1st year here..

-A guy who hit .355 for us over the span of 11 years, hit over .380 4 times, and helped us win us a World Series..

-A guy who won 164 games with us (including 4 20 win seasons), had 5 seasons with an ERA below 3.00 for us, & was part of a rotation who many consider the best rotation in MLB history.

-A guy who hit .375 for us (never below .327 & including his rookie season where he hit .408) & is widely considered one of the best hitters of all time.

-A guy who hit .300 for us, is our franchise leader in stolen bases, and helped us get to the World Series. Not to mention many considered him the best lead-off hitter of his time.

Anyone who complains about getting talked down to about their baseball knowledge then immediatly starts a rant on BA and strikeouts needs to take a step back. We have much, much better ways to evaluate hitters.

and you're going to have to do a bit better than 'just believe me' in regards to how getting 3 guys in a deal doesn't stack up to getting just 1. Those 3 guys have proven to be very talented, and the Indians got the rights to them, on the cheap, for 6 years each. For a guy who wasn't going to be here 1.5 years later. Contracts matter, a lot, to everyone but the Yankees. Some of those trades came when trading soon-to-be-expensive-FAs for cost controlled years wasn't a factor. Today its just as important as how talented the players acquired are.

 

[macbdog]

Someone needs to stand up, gently tug on their panties, and pull out the bunch. If you don't want a 'talking down to' then don't say something stupid. Your reasoning for discounting the Colon is painfully subjective- you can use it to pretty much write off anyting the Tribe has done since 1920 because hey, it didn't result in a World Series.

The team's overall performance is comletely irrelevent in judging a trade- did the Tribe gain in the deal? And how much? They got a Cy Young winner, a perennial All-Star 5 tool center fielder, AND a quality 2B for 1 1/2 years of Bartolo Colon. In the Tris Speaker deal, the Tribe got a HOFer, but it was still one player. But that is not really my point- my point is that I don't see how the Tribe's failure to turn into a perennial contender with Lee and Sizemore, which is due to economics and not with these guys' play on the field, has anything to do with judging the return on a trade.

 

[elcheato]

To those who say we got nothing for Brandon Phillips, if you look back at the trade, it led up to trading for Chris Perez, which looks to be the only stable in our bullpen, and probably for a while he will be, with Tony Sipp I guess.

We traded Brandon Phillips for Jeff Stevens, who we then packaged in a deal for Mark DeRosa, who we dealt for Chris Perez and the other guy.