Cavaliers Offseason Thread

[malus]

i feel like we might strike out w haywood contract

Naaaaaaaaaahh we got this.

I've got my Wilson Chandler themed birthday cake ordered and ready to go.

 

[MirORich]

Because that's how restricted free agency works..........

Otherwise, there is the 7 million dollar QO that we (the team) can force you to take if you don't find an offer sheet from another team and don't like the terms of our own offer.

My point was that it only takes one team to set your value to THAT team, regardless of whether its a team you don't currently play for or the team you're already on. Whatever number/deal Tristan eventually gets from the Cavs, it is what THEY value him at, all things being considered, by mere virtue of them agreeing to the deal.

And yes all things considered includes factors beyond his raw stats.

 

[EdMonix11]

Not my logic. Monnix said Kanter should be let go because he was putting up stats on a "terrible team." That's not true. He was putting up stats in important games on a decent/good team trying to make the playoffs.

And you know, there is a simple answer to all of this. If Thompson is valued just as much as Kanter then I guess he can go get a max offer sheet from another team just like Kanter.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean the Thunder were a terrible team. I meant they were a terrible offensive team that lacked ball movement and a secondary scorer and Kanter stepped into that role and his scoring peaked. I'm not sure that his contributions, offensively, will be sustainable with Durant coming back. He struggled to fit in offensively in Utah which exposed his defensive ability and there's danger in signing a guy to a max deal who might experience the same issues with Westbrook and Durant dominating the ball-- could cripple OKC's chance at keeping Durant. He's better than he was in Utah but probably not as good in the long run as he was on a non-playoff team in OKC. I see his value somewhere in between, if that makes sense, just not a max player for me.

 

[gratefuldead]

Naaaaaaaaaahh we got this.

I've got my Wilson Chandler themed birthday cake ordered and ready to go.

the only way i could see chandler coming here is if we helped facilitate getting Markieff Morris to Denver

Suns want Keef moved and just signed teletovic as his replacement

nugs are rebuilding and could actually use a good, young stretch 4 to put next to their big, foreign center

Cavs Get Wilson
Suns Get two 2nd round picks (one from CLE, one from DEN)
Nuggs get Keef

nice simple deal, good for everyone i think

 

[BimboColesHair]

Yeah, because he doesn't have any actual skillset on that end to lead me to believe, he'll develop.

He has no outside jumper, he's not a superior post player, with outstanding footwork. His post game I don't is horrible, he's got a nice little running hook shot that's decent. Nothing that leads me to think he'll expand on it though.

He's always going to just be a garbage scorer, and that's fine.

There's nothing in Tristan's offensive arsenal game, that leads me to think its going to improve dramatically. His age isn't something I factor.

I got to see proof, some kind of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Kanter is never going to be a shot blocker, defensive prowless on that side of the ball either.

He doesn't have those skillsets either, so expecting that wouldn't be wise.

But playing defense in the NBA isn't just a skillset you need to have in order to do it.

And Kanter has shown you enough skill on defense that he could become good at it? Got it. And regardless of what you try to tell me, defense is a skill-set, one which requires work on your footwork, stance, knowledge of the game, and read and react skills. Until I see it, much like you with Tristan on offense, I am going to continue to say Kanter will be a sieve on defense and one of the worst defensive players in the league, which as a C is a killer. If I was OKC, I would have tried to sign and trade him the second he didn't agree to an extension I was willing to pay and said he would test the market and run with Steven Adams as my C. OKC is much like us, they need guys to fill a role outside of their Big 3.

And, again, if you are partially justifying Kanter's max contract on the basis that he could become better defensively, even though he has yet to show it like Tristan on offense, I don't get how you can't say the same about Tristan...I guess that's just the logic of a teacher used to grading argumentative papers in me.

 

[MirORich]

If Suns move Keef, they need to bring back 1 PF in the deal, no?

Would they take on Hickson(after all these years) in order to get those two picks

But again, with the Mavs and Portland fading, there are two open playoff spots from last year. OKC slides into one, but the Suns are going to likely try to gun for the other. So I don't see them trading Keef unless they are getting some talent back i the deal.

 

[gratefuldead]

i think the trade machine has the wrong salary for wilson but whatever it works

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nozc5ye

 

[Rich]

My point was that it only takes one team to set your value to THAT team, regardless of whether its a team you don't currently play for or the team you're already on. Whatever number/deal Tristan eventually gets from the Cavs, it is what THEY value him at, all things being considered, by mere virtue of them agreeing to the deal.

And yes all things considered includes factors beyond his raw stats.

And this is half of the discussion. Those of us who feel the Cavs should NOT value Tristan at 5/80 and before making such an offer should dare him to go find an offer from another team.

I don't understand why you're so against discussing what the Cavs should and shouldn't do before he actually signs. It's a message board meant for discussion on topics such as this.

 

[gratefuldead]

If Suns move Keef, they need to bring back 1 PF in the deal, no?

Would they take on Hickson(after all these years) in order to get those two picks

But again, with the Mavs and Portland fading, there are two open playoff spots from last year. OKC slides into one, but the Suns are going to likely try to gun for the other. So I don't see them trading Keef unless they are getting some talent back i the deal.

they signed Mirza

 

[Birdy89]

Kevin Love is a miserable defender, but he helps us offensively so we live with it.

Just as Moz covers up for Love, Ibaka will provide the rim protection that Kanter doesn't.

Kanter provides OKC with a viable 3rd scoring option in the post they haven't ever had, and it will take tremendous pressure off Westbrook/Durant to have to do everything offensively.

All teams have guys that they live with their crappy defense because they can put up points. Fewer teams live with guys that have little offensive ability but play good defense.

 

[MirORich]

they signed Mirza

And what other PFs on the roster besides him and Keef? You going to roll with just Leuer and Teletovic if Keef gets traded?

 

[MirORich]

Kevin Love is a miserable defender, but he helps us offensively so we live with it.

This was not true from about halfway through the season and not just because of having Moz to guard the rim

 

[BimboColesHair]

Kevin Love is a miserable defender, but he helps us offensively so we live with it.

Just as Moz covers up for Love, Ibaka will provide the rim protection that Kanter doesn't.

Kanter provides OKC with a viable 3rd scoring option in the post they haven't ever had, and it will take tremendous pressure off Westbrook/Durant to have to do everything offensively.

All teams have guys that they live with their crappy defense because they can put up points. Fewer teams live with guys that have little offensive ability but play good defense.

Again, this has already been proven false...in a big way I might add, as in they were bottom 2 DRtg in the league with both on the floor.

Compare that to K Love and Timo and you are rethinking the whole "Kevin Love is a miserable defender".

And Kanter is the 4th offensive option behind Ibaka when they are all healthy...I feel like people are forgetting the strides he has taken on offense. Been a 15+ point scorer the last 3 seasons.

 

[priceFTW]

About Kanter:

He's not better than TT. His RPM is -2.72 because his defense is -3.87, the WORST IN THE NBA for centers. Only 7 centers in the NBA have a DRPM below -.70. Even Barnani and Matt Bonner are ahead of him. He's so terrible defensively that teams he's on don't outscore opponents no matter how many points or rebounds he gets.You might think: "Well, with Serge Ibaka in there, he'll be OK." Nope. In 238 possessions played with Ibaka, OKC gave up a DRTG of 111.5 with Kanter/Ibaka on court. A 111.5 DRTG would put you at 29th out of 30th teams in the league. Even with a great perimeter defender in Roberson who doesn't do anything else, the DRTG is still 110.

Utah ORTG with Kanter ON: 107.8
Utah ORTG with Kanter OFF: 104.2

Utah DRTG with Kanter ON: 111.2
Utah DRTG with Kanter OFF: 102.2

Utah was 9 points per 100 possessions worse defensively with Kanter on court. In total, they were 5.4 points per 100 worse with Kanter on court.

OKC ORTG with Kanter ON: 112.8
OKC ORTG with Kanter OFF: 106.2

OKC DRTG with Kanter ON: 111.7
OKC DRTG with Kanter OFF: 103.9

OKC was 7.8 points per 100 possessions worse defensively with Kanter on court. In total, they were 1.2 points per 100 worse with Kanter on court.

In the modern NBA, your center has to protect the rim and play against pick and roll.

He's 80th out of 83 in FG% allowed at the rim among those who faced at least 5 shots at the rim per game.

He's 104th out of 105 players in post defense among those who played at least 70 possessions.

He handled the roll man decently (top 30% overall).

I wouldn't want him as a starter on my team.


In addition, centers have the highest average impact on defense due to defensive rebounding (they get the most and end possessions) and because of their rim protection via help defense.

Out of 73 centers, only 20 had negative defensive impacts and only 7 had a DRPM below -.70. A team EXPECTS the center to be a defensive strength. Kanter's negative defensive impact is severely below even the average center's.

Meanwhile, 70 out of 99 SGs had negative DRPMs. A plus defender at SG is a great plus (thank you, Iman) but one expects a negative DRPM here. A guy like Crawford is awful at -4.3 but he's not as far below the average SG as Kanter is below average compared to other centers. 63 of 84 PGs also had negative DRPMs.

He's young and can improve but he's shown no signs thus far. In light of how awful Kanter is at defense compared to other centers who are supposed to have positive defensive impacts and considering the fact that the modern NBA requires a center to be strong defensively, one can make an empirical case that Kanter is one of the 5 worst defensive players in the league. Do you want that player as a starter?

 

[gratefuldead]

And what other PFs on the roster besides him and Keef? You going to roll with just Leuer and Teletovic if Keef gets traded?

fine, they can have rights to xmas instead of a pick