• Changing RCF's index page, please click on "Forums" to access the forums.

Choo traded for Stubbs, Bauer, Albers and Shaw

Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Grade the trade...

  • A

    Votes: 62 66.7%
  • B

    Votes: 24 25.8%
  • C

    Votes: 4 4.3%
  • D

    Votes: 1 1.1%
  • F

    Votes: 2 2.2%

  • Total voters
    93
I've admittedly been building some fairly impressive strawmen in this thread.

But we're never going to agree. Yes, I think prospects are somewhat like lottery tickets. If Andy Marte and Matt LaPorta make it all the way to AAA with spectacular stats, your scouts rave about them, everyone else's scouts rave about them. If you use all of that information and weigh it against what you are losing (Coco Crisp or half of a losing season of CC Sabathia) and then pull the trigger - if things go wrong, I don't know that you can fault a team for that. You can't 100% predict how a player will perform at the MLB level. You can use all of the data available to make an assumption, but we're talking about human beings, so there is no 100% foolproof method of projecting.

You have been dangerously close to saying that A) a team should be able to identify if a player will or will not pan out with nearly 100% accuracy and that B) if that player does not pan out, it is the fault of the people either evaluating that player or developing them.

I think sometimes guys just can't hit MLB pitching.

Did they or did they not say that 2012-2013 was the window? The window shut before it even opened. This front office is an absolute joke. I don't want to hear about the economics of baseball, I want a CONTENDER!!!! I don't care if they get knocked out in the playoffs, I want a PERENNIAL CONTENDER! I'm tired of the poop sandwiches this team is giving us! I'm tired of the whole rebuild thing.

We can't fault them for the teams record and the lack of talent on the field? :chuckles:

What has been on the field the past few years has been hot garbage. Literally byrd/elk (Caspi/Miles) shit. If the Browns defensive line took a shit, there'd be less shit then what this front office has spewed out on the field. The Cleveland Steamers are what they have put out there, not the Indians.
 
Last edited:
Did they or did they not say that 2012-2013 was the window? The window shut before it even opened. This front office is an absolute joke. I don't want to hear about the economics of baseball, I want a CONTENDER!!!! I don't care if they get knocked out in the playoffs, I want a PERENNIAL CONTENDER! I'm tired of the poop sandwiches this team is giving us! I'm tired of the whole rebuild thing.

We can't fault them for the teams record and the lack of talent on the field? :chuckles:

What has been on the field the past few years has been hot garbage. Literally byrd/elk (Caspi/Miles) shit. If the Browns defensive line took a shit, there'd be less shit then what this front office has spewed out on the field. The Cleveland Steamers are what they have put out there, not the Indians.

Would probably explain why they're completely shifting focus and discussing trading just about everyone.

Please...I beg of you, please don't bring your regular nonsense in here.

We know, you don't believe in economics and refuse to believe they even make a dent in how a team should run. You've made it abundantly clear.
 
Did they or did they not say that 2012-2013 was the window? The window shut before it even opened. This front office is an absolute joke. I don't want to hear about the economics of baseball, I want a CONTENDER!!!! I don't care if they get knocked out in the playoffs, I want a PERENNIAL CONTENDER! I'm tired of the poop sandwiches this team is giving us! I'm tired of the whole rebuild thing.

We can't fault them for the teams record and the lack of talent on the field? :chuckles:

What has been on the field the past few years has been hot garbage. Literally byrd/elk (Caspi/Miles) shit. If the Browns defensive line took a shit, there'd be less shit then what this front office has spewed out on the field. The Cleveland Steamers are what they have put out there, not the Indians.

First you sounded like a whiny baby.

to_crying.gif


Then you sounded like a bad comedian

65038a













terrible.
 
Last edited:
Hadn't seen this posted yet, via Keith Law:

The Cleveland Indians' strategy earlier this winter, going after expensive veterans such as Shane Victorino and Kevin Youkilis, made little sense given the state of the roster, and the team was lucky those signings didn't work out.

But in the three-team, nine-player deal completed Tuesday night, the Indians are flipping one year of Shin-Soo Choo for six years of Trevor Bauer and three years of Drew Stubbs; they've made a move that better reflects the talent on hand and the immediate future of their franchise. On the other end of the same deal, the Cincinnati Reds add a potentially significant bat but will give some of that gain back on defense, while the Arizona Diamondbacks end up with the shortest side of the triangle in giving up a potential No. 2 starter for a defense-only shortstop and a lefty specialist.

Indians do well

The net result in this trade has Cleveland dealing Choo, a free agent after 2013, lefty reliever Tony Sipp, and minor league first baseman Lars Anderson for Bauer, Stubbs, reliever Bryan Shaw and reliever Matt Albers. It's a small price to pay for two upside players in Bauer and Stubbs.

Bauer's major league debut in 2012 was disappointing, marred by a groin injury he suffered in his first outing and by his refusal to alter his pitching plan, drawing the ire of fellow D-backs players and management. But when healthy he still has swing-and-miss stuff and the intelligence to convert that into success on the mound. Bauer's fastball was 92-95 mph and touched 97 in college, but in the majors this year he was more 90-91 and touched 94 as he tried to pitch through the groin injury and adjusted to pitching every fifth day.

He has two varieties of curveballs that missed plenty of bats in college, but they typically finish out of the zone, so big league hitters just watch them go by. That's the main adjustment Bauer will have to make -- trusting his stuff in the zone when he's behind in the count because major league hitters don't chase that often when they're ahead. It's not mechanical, it's mental, and it's something Bauer will have to change to reach his potential in the majors. Bauer's an intelligent kid with a tremendous resume from college, and was good enough to race to the majors in his first full year of pro ball. There is no reason to assume that he'll never make this adjustment just because he couldn't make it in four major league starts at age 21.

I've never loved Bauer's delivery, which might be modeled after Tim Lincecum's but isn't as loose and doesn't get Bauer over his front side as well as Lincecum does. Even Lincecum seems to have worn down after his first 1,000 innings (very impressive ones, mind you). For the Indians, however, if Bauer should fade in his fifth or sixth season that's much less of a concern than extracting value from him now while he's inexpensive and their need for starting pitching is so acute.

Stubbs, meanwhile, is a first-time arbitration-eligible player coming off his worst year in three as a regular, one in which his bat was below replacement level and his value was saved only by his plus defense and his baserunning. Stubbs has a long swing and actually has 20-plus homer power that he can't get to because he swings and misses way too often at pitches in the zone, a combination of his swing length and poor pitch recognition.

He's an excellent defender in center, however, good enough to carry his bat even through a miserable season like he had in 2012, but for Cleveland's front office this is more like a one-year audition for Stubbs before he gets really expensive in his second and third years of arbitration. If he repeats 2012, they can just non-tender him after the season, but there is some upside here because of the glove and the raw power if the team can even get him to make more contact on fastball strikes. Bauer alone makes this a good deal for Cleveland, but if Stubbs regains a little of his lost offensive value it'll be an enormous win for the team.
 
I keep hearing that Bauer had messed up mechanics but refused to listen to coaching. His pitching coach Kevin Towers has a cavalcade of back-handed quotes to the media. After seeing Ubaldo fall apart, I have to wonder if the Tribe have the right environment to straighten him out.

I know the point of this post was to get this discussion back on track (and thank you for doing so), but I wanted to point out that the Diamondbacks pitching coach is the one and only Charles Nagy.

Charles+Nagy+eSSix4XKhgYm.jpg
 
I like how in that article the guy states that the Indians lucked out by failing in their original strategies. :chuckles:

So basically, they made a good move in spite of themselves.
 
Dane Cook is not a bad comedian sir.

He's just an out-of-work comedian.
 
^^ Usually when you're an out of work comedian you're pretty bad at comedy


http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/12/12/the-idea-of-trevor-bauer-trumps-the-reality-for-now/

The Idea of Trevor Bauer Trumps the Reality (For Now)
Posted by Drew Fairservice under Arizona Diamondbacks, Trevor Bauer on Dec 12, 2012

When the details of last night’s three team swap surfaced, it was assumed the “young pitcher” Arizona offered was Pat Corbin. After coming to Arizona in the Dan Haren trade, Corbin posted strong minor league numbers and provided league-average innings in his first go-round as a big league starter. Corbin is a better-than-serviceable arm with loads of control, limited as his ceiling might be. A suitable piece for what the Snakes looked to receive in their part of the deal.

But then Trevor Bauer became the trade chip. It was Trevor Bauer that Cleveland wanted to part with Didi Gregorius and it was Trevor Bauer they received. Trevor Bauer is younger than Corbin — younger than all but seven players to pitch in the Majors in 2012 — and a former first round draft pick. A first round draft pick in 2011, third overall. After gifting Bauer a $4.45M bonus and rushing him to the big leagues in less than a year, the Diamondbacks are now out of the Trevor Bauer business. After minimal exposure, they decided the realities of Trevor Bauer outweighed the idea of Trevor Bauer and shipped him out.


The idea of Trevor Bauer is an enticing one. Not just the potential of Trevor Bauer to turn his three plus pitches into swinging strikes at the big league level, the idea of Trevor Bauer as the merit-based antihero of internet baseball fandom. He is brash and unconventional and doesn’t look like the big-armed robots throwing 200 innings in 20 starts for every major college program in the country. His delivery is defiantly modeled after that of Tim Lincecum, as if to suggest the idiom “one in a million” is just a state of mind.

His cherished long toss routine gives the uninitiated something to gawk at during pregame warm-ups. He is, as Grant Brisbee describes him, a “mechanics wonk” who posts slow motion videos of his delivery and cryptically named pitches like “the reverse slider” on Youtube for all to see. He decries the conventional wisdom which implores pitchers to keep the ball down, insisting he can work up in the zone and still be effective.

This is the idea of Trevor Bauer. The consciously eccentric savant who turns established knowledge on its ear just to say he could. The reality was much different.

The results at the big league level are as worrisome as they are irrelevant. A 21-year-old struggling not only with his command but with his stuff, watching as precious miles per hour drop from his fastball and his other pitches spin flatly through the zone. The inability to make the adjustments requested of his coaching staff, adjustments tried and proven and gleaned over many years and many brash hurlers breaking down and accepting the General Order of Things.

A recent ESPN article by former baseball GM Jim Bowden ($) paints Diamondbacks general manager Kevin Towers as quaintly old school. In the piece, Towers gently laments the current state of the affairs among execs, noting that so many of his younger contemporaries keep so many irons in the fire at the same time, constantly shaping and re-shaping potential trade requests.

This characterization of Towers doesn’t exactly suggest a man with the mindset to freely allow a young player with so much potential to squander his abilities long tossing and ignoring the plaintive cries of his battle-hardened coaches and instructors. Towers has likely been down this road before, watching (or perceiving) a pitcher resist instruction to his own determent. Should Trevor Bauer fail to catch on at the big league level, he wouldn’t be the first pitcher unable to get out of his own way before it was too late.

Rather than hope Trevor Bauer goes the way of the Roy Halladay School of Re-Education, Towers moved his coveted young prospect for another sought-after player. As Dave Cameron and others point out, another season of Bauer struggling while remaining at odds and evens with the coaches would only lower his trade value. Towers swallowed hard and made a tough choice – though one made a little easier knowing Bauer was not his draft pick.

Not having stood in the draft war room and fought and debated the merits and costs of Trevor Bauer relative to the other names on the 2011 draft board is not an insignificant part of the decision to trade him so quickly. Given a little more GM turnover, I think we would see this type of trade more.

Instead we have the astute Clevelands grabbing a player who many believe can still become an ace. A pitcher with three great pitches which, during his brief big league cameo and the resulting fallout, were largely not at his disposal during the latter half of 2012. All the arm training and shake weights and look-at-me pregame ritual couldn’t save Bauer from a groin injury, widely blamed for Bauer’s inability to be Trevor Bauer through much of 2012. Can recovery from that injury save his velocity, command, and status as a Can’t Miss Prospect?

The idea of a power pitcher without elite command who, according to Keith Law, “was 92-95 mph and touched 97 in college, but in the majors this year he was more 90-91 and touched 94″ isn’t a very appealing one at all. If the Diamondbacks thought those changes were permanent, then good on them for cutting their losses and dumping a potential headache they don’t need.

If that velocity comes back with added health, then the idea of adding a top prospect with ace stuff who is also outspoken and fun and willing to embrace fans and challenge the staid order of things is a terrific idea indeed, one from which Cleveland stands to benefit from for a long, long time. It comes back to the idea of risk versus reward and the idea of a change of scenery being all an exciting player needs to realize his potential. There are more outcomes for Trevor Bauer than “ace” or “bust” but the potential for either is what makes him, and the decisions to trade him, so damn interesting. A matter of ideals, I suppose.
 
Screw chris perez, I think that we found the real wild thing haha...On a serious note I like the trade, I never would have thought choo would bring us this kind of return I just hope it pans out.
 
Would probably explain why they're completely shifting focus and discussing trading just about everyone.

Please...I beg of you, please don't bring your regular nonsense in here.

We know, you don't believe in economics and refuse to believe they even make a dent in how a team should run. You've made it abundantly clear.

The minute he said the following:
You have been dangerously close to saying that A) a team should be able to identify if a player will or will not pan out with nearly 100% accuracy and that B) if that player does not pan out, it is the fault of the people either evaluating that player or developing them.

Is the minute he took it off the subject of the trade. It is the front offices job to put talent on the field. THEY FAILED. I don't care how you slice it, economics of baseball, bad luck, injuries, the umps, ect... They're FAILURES!
 
The minute he said the following:


Is the minute he took it off the subject of the trade. It is the front offices job to put talent on the field. THEY FAILED. I don't care how you slice it, economics of baseball, bad luck, injuries, the umps, ect... They're FAILURES!

2192148024_688d0eb741_o.gif
 
^^ Usually when you're an out of work comedian you're pretty bad at comedy


http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2012/12/12/the-idea-of-trevor-bauer-trumps-the-reality-for-now/

granted i dont know a lot about bauer but basically it seemed like before he hit the baseball draft he made it very well known he didnt want to go to a team that was going to dramatically change his delivery. A delivery he had been working on since he was 10 and had studied mechanics/pitchers etc for 10+ years. then what do the diamondbacks try and do...... ill give him a pass for not working out with the diamondbacks
 
I will be interested to see if Bauer's workout routine keeps his arm in good shape, or if he has issues just like many other young pitchers. The Indians have not had a very good track record of arm health and if Bauer's routine works for him for let's say the next 3 or 4 years, I wouldn't be surprised if the Indians incorporate some of his routine into theirs.
 
I know next to nothing about Bauer, what's his potential look like? Number 1? Number 2? Ace? I know he didn't do great last season, but he was 21 so I don't really care. Seems to me we got good return on a guy who would have been gone at the end of the season anyway.

Also what's weird about how he prepares?
 

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Video

Episode 3-14: "Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey"

Rubber Rim Job Podcast Spotify

Episode 3:14: " Time for Playoff Vengeance on Mickey."
Top