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Climate Change Thread

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So you'd need to have enough clean energy sources to be able to make the electricity for electric cars with clean energy.

We do need to come up with a plan on how to replace jobs of workers that currently work in the oil and gas industry. Those are generally high paying jobs and Texas' economy in particular would be devastated if the oil industry ceased to exist.

Any such conversion certainly wouldn't happen overnight - we'd likely be talking at least a decade or so, so the burden would be spread out over time.

As for Texas' economy, other states have been hit very hard by the loss of sectors of their economy, and we don't bail them out. Textiles, steel, cars, etc. At least, not yet.

The individual variations between workers, different circumstances, educational levels, experience, ability to relocate, etc., lead me to believe that any government "plan" to address that is likely to be a gigantic boondoggle, and waste of taxpayer's money.
 
btw: while the clip above is funny, the underlying point isn't. How does it make any sense to let public opinion override scientific consensus on something as important as the future habitability of our planet.

Again, if the issue were an dinosaur extinction sized astroid projected to hit earth in 55 years and the scientific consensus was that the astroid could be diverted if we started now but if we wait, it will be too late to divert it, there would be no public opinion debate, it would immediately become world issue #1.

If technology developed in to opposite order and the roads were filled with electric cars, there was a global distributed renewable based infrastructure to charge them, and renewable energy powered our homes, nobody would be in favor of switching over to a system of burning fossil fuels and throwing the fumes from that into the air we breath.

If you drive home, park your car, put your garage door down, and listen to the end of the ball game on the radio before you go into the house, you could die if you forget to turn off your gas powered car. If the car is electric, you'll be just fine.
 
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btw: while the clip above is funny, the underlying point isn't. How does it make any sense to let public opinion override scientific consensus on something as important as the future habitability of our planet.

You know what's even worse?

Why haven't we seen a conservative argument yet?

There is a scientific consensus on this issue; yet we have "internet experts" in this thread claiming it shouldn't be done. Hmm...
 
btw: while the clip above is funny, the underlying point isn't. How does it make any sense to let public opinion override scientific consensus on something as important as the future habitability of our planet.

Kinda reminds me of the push to trivialize whether you're a male or female at birth. :dunno:

On topic though, I don't think it's public opinion that is keeping this from moving. Everyone should be able to concede that humans do impact climate change and that alternate energy is going to be reality for everyone at some point. That said, I think the big business interest has more to do with this not going anywhere than public opinion. So, really these capitalists need to see a way to make money from alternate energy sources. People can bark to their councilpersons or representatives, but I don't see them budging without an overwhelming societal push. Not many things can band EVERYONE together. This will move when DC is hit by a hurricane (or something).
 
Kinda reminds me of the push to trivialize whether you're a male or female at birth. :dunno:

On topic though, I don't think it's public opinion that is keeping this from moving. Everyone should be able to concede that humans do impact climate change and that alternate energy is going to be reality for everyone at some point. That said, I think the big business interest has more to do with this not going anywhere than public opinion. So, really these capitalists need to see a way to make money from alternate energy sources. People can bark to their councilpersons or representatives, but I don't see them budging without an overwhelming societal push. Not many things can band EVERYONE together. This will move when DC is hit by a hurricane (or something).

But why is it that we are lying to ourselves just within the confines of these 2 threads?

I find that astonishing.

I mean, why is it we can't have a critical, rational, fact-based discussion about this issue - just in this thread?

Why the intransigence? As @The Oi implied, if no one here is working for Big Oil, what is their incentive to lie to themselves?
 
But why is it that we are lying to ourselves just within the confines of these 2 threads?

I find that astonishing.

I mean, why is it we can't have a critical, rational, fact-based discussion about this issue - just in this thread?

Why the intransigence? As @The Oi implied, if no one here is working for Big Oil, what is their incentive to lie to themselves?

From my POV, both sides seem to be intransigent. Yes, climate change happens on a larger scale over larger periods of time. Yes, humans are exacerbating that process (with little concern for consequences).

I've been for alternate energy for a while. Not because of my political affiliation, but because I think it's a gigantic opportunity to become more self-reliant as humans. In my opinion, it's big money that's in the way of meaningful change. I can't answer as to why other conservatives adhere so closely to big oil.
 
From my POV, both sides seem to be intransigent.

Why do you think this?

Yes, climate change happens on a larger scale over larger periods of time. Yes, humans are exacerbating that process (with little concern for consequences).

Agreed.

I've been for alternate energy for a while. Not because of my political affiliation, but because I think it's a gigantic opportunity to become more self-reliant as humans. In my opinion, it's big money that's in the way of meaningful change. I can't answer as to why other conservatives adhere so closely to big oil.

I see, and I agree. I just don't understand why you find equivalence between the two positions? Care to elaborate?
 
I see, and I agree. I just don't understand why you find equivalence between the two positions? Care to elaborate?

From my reading in the two threads, it's the observation I've had. It's a good question.

I do think that people who strongly believe in global warming and humans' impact in it oftentimes conflate the entire concept of a changing climate to a consequence of human action. Therefore, any defense of the concept of a naturally changing climate is met with "you're shills of oil companies". So, that seems intransigent to me. To not acknowledge that part of this is natural, that is.

I'm not sure what to think with people who can't admit the role of humans in this. Maybe they just trust their preferred source of news more than scientists. Before you tell me how crazy that sounds, I know.
 
From my reading in the two threads, it's the observation I've had. It's a good question.

I would venture to guess most people would likely agree with you; but I think some of that is the tendency for people to draw false equivalence looking for a middle-ground solution to problems that, at first glance, seem too opaque to solve easily.

I do think that people who strongly believe in global warming and humans' impact in it oftentimes conflate the entire concept of a changing climate to a consequence of human action.

Hmm..

What if I told you that I don't "believe" in global warming and climate change? But that I'm simply following scientific data and the scientific consensus?

That is to say; between these two sides, who is relying on belief and who is relying on rationality and science?

Personally, I find "belief" to be the antithesis of scientific study and research.

Therefore, any defense of the concept of a naturally changing climate is met with "you're shills of oil companies". So, that seems intransigent to me. To not acknowledge that part of this is natural, that is.

I'm not so sure though.

The problem isn't a naturally warming climate though; but instead, a runaway effect of global warming / climate change that is specifically being caused by man-made pollutants.

Scientists have demonstrated, conclusively, that man-made effects of pollution have caused long-term damage to the atmosphere, and that this is getting worse and worse. Many projections show that within 300 years, our planet will look very different than it does today, due to irreparable damage to our atmosphere.

How do we address this problem if there are folks who would ignore the issue simply because they put an (R) in front of their name? And not just politicians, but everyday people, the very people in this thread?

I'm not sure what to think with people who can't admit the role of humans in this. Maybe they just trust their preferred source of news more than scientists. Before you tell me how crazy that sounds, I know.

I know you know... it just, saddens me.

It's why I've always felt that logic, ethics, critical thinking and analysis, need to be fundamental, everyday parts of academic curriculum from kindergarten to grad school.
 
I'm not sure what to think with people who can't admit the role of humans in this. Maybe they just trust their preferred source of news more than scientists. Before you tell me how crazy that sounds, I know.

Why should their opinion on what to do matter any more than people who think the earth is flat or that the moon landing was faked matter when discussing science issues relating to those issues?
 
Why should their opinion on what to do matter any more than people who think the earth is flat or that the moon landing was faked matter when discussing science issues relating to those issues?

dou·ble·think
ˈdəbəlˌTHiNGk/
noun
  1. the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination.
Doublethink is the act of ordinary people simultaneously accepting two mutually contradictory beliefs as correct, often in distinct social contexts.[1] Doublethink is related to, but differs from, hypocrisy and neutrality. Somewhat related but almost the opposite is cognitive dissonance, where contradictory beliefs cause conflict in one's mind. Doublethink is notable due to a lack of cognitive dissonance — thus the person is completely unaware of any conflict or contradiction.

George Orwell created the word doublethink in his dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949); doublethink is part of newspeak. In the novel, its origin within the typical citizen is unclear; while it could be partly a product of Big Brother's formal brainwashing programmes,[2] the novel explicitly shows people learning Doublethink and newspeak due to peer pressure and a desire to "fit in", or gain status within the Party — to be seen as a loyal Party Member. In the novel, for someone to even recognize – let alone mention – any contradiction within the context of the Party line was akin to blasphemy, and could subject that someone to possible disciplinary action and to the instant social disapproval of fellow Party Members.

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself – that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.[3]


“The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just as long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth.[3]
 
I think this debate is fun to have, but is already in the process of resolving itself.

Q-Tip brings up some excellent points that are more or less being disregarded: We as a nation can not move away from fossil fuels faster than other developed/ developing nations while it is a cheaper alternative for energy today. If we do, we price ourselves out of a competitive market, we would force production overseas. That's why the UN summits are so important: we need a level playing field. If America and Europe abandon fossil fuels, but China goes all-in, their cost goes way down while ours actually escalates. That's poor economics.

We also should consider what abandoning fossil fuels would do to oil-dependent countries, particularly in an already tumultuous middle east. Plunging countries into economic turmoil creates extremist groups desperate to improve their situation without having a good idea how. This could lead to revolutions without long term plans or identities, and an increase in terrorism internationally.

That's not to say I'm a disbeliever in global warming, or think nothing should be done. I actually think the problem is already on it's way to solving itself. The rush for alternative energy in the private sector is the new gold mine of the energy market. Current solar technology is following Moore's Law, and by 2020 will be just as economically competitive as fossil fuels, even if oil prices don't rise. There will absolutely be long-term effects of man-made global warming, and we'll see it play out over the next 200 years. That's because technology was already 30-40 years too late in developing energy alternatives. We identified the problem far too late in the game.

I will say "climate deniers" drive me insane; the problem is multi-faceted, but to deny what really is resolved science always drives me crazy. We should be having a more honest philosophical debate about what should logically be done rather than railing against multi-billion dollar industries which cannot / should not change course overnight.

Also, it's worth noting that companies like Exxon are at the cutting edge of producing alternative solutions. I would bet good money that it won't be new industry that supplants the oil companies, but rather savvy oil companies will pivot and transition at the very second it becomes economically feasible to do so.
 
If you want to take a serious look at the issues and solutions. Number one Oil isn't the largest offender. Its coal burning power generation and Natural Gas power generation. There are other forms of power the largest issue is still power storage, there really is no way to store it currently. It isnt only storage though, when you transmit power ( move it from source to consumer) you loose it, it bleeds out and derates itself.

It is sad, we could probably move 80% of our power needs to renewable, water, air and sun but the costs and returns would literally shut power companies down. None of them are going to fall on the sword and we shouldn't expect them too.

There was a lot of talk about switching to Natural Gas would lower emissions and lots of reports that were reporting a 50% reduction in emissions, well now they have come out and said there really isn't much difference. Those studies and articles were done when we thought there was an oil shortage. Guess what happened when we discovered all this oil the last 8 years in America? That is right about when they said guess we were wrong the emissions aren't half for LNG.
So who do you believe? The misdirection the last 15 years is mind boggling from "scientists" .

The automobile side of the equation is already being fixed, it takes time for change but its happening much faster than a most people care to recognize. The difference in emissions from 10 years ago to today is night and day difference (auto related)

I don't think the conservatives I know really argue against climate change per se, I think they just feel like there are bigger issues to them going on right now. They don't do a great job looking 50 - 100 years down the road. For that matter human beings for the majority don't look that far down the road.

We collectively fail everyday every single one of us.

Do you ride share every day?

Do you plan your trips so your minimizing your drive times?

Do you run to the grocery store 2-3 times a week for last minute items?

Collectively there is a lot we can do with out our government telling us to do it but as typical Americans the vast majority of us will wait until they make us do it.

I drive in my Truck 70 miles a day one way to work and back, I could probably ride share, but I can afford the gas and honestly i don't want the hassle. BTW i stopped and went a mile or two out of my way last night to get beer to watch the game. So you see my point.
 
Btw to the point China and India are right there with us in coal burning. We all have to make a change not just one of us.
 

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