Dion Waiters Traded

[The Human Q-Tip]

Why are so many people assuming they don't fit together?? Their skill sets are not THAT similar. Dion can drive and kick or pull up. Kyrie can spot up and finish at the rim.

You can stick them both on the court and "force" them to get along, but it's certainly not an ideal fit. I'd say it is three things. The first is that because our bigs cannot spread the floor, the paint is often so crowded that it is difficult to penetrate and finish. Kyrie is exceptional at finishing, so it is not much of a problem for him. But for Dion, it takes a weakness and makes it worse. That means he needs to be more of an off-ball, spot-up guy like Miles, and that's not really his game.

The second is that both of them like to bring the ball up, initiate the offense, and sometimes pound the ball and run iso's. But there's only one ball, and it seems inevitable -- to me at least -- that the guy without the ball isn't going to like that much. I understand the concept of forcing them to change their games and each give up some control of the ball, but that's essentially asking both of them to change the way they've always played. If either one -- much less both -- of them don't fully buy into that, that's a real problem. Honestly, I think both of them want the other to be the spot-up guy.

And the third is that Dion is not good at moving off the ball, and that is essential when Kyrie is the guy initiating the offense. He kind of just stands there, and I think it's because it's a role he's never really played before -- he's used to having the ball in his hands. Kyrie is better at it, but to take advantage of that, you'd essentially have to make Dion more the PG, and Kyrie the SG. And that is not something Kyrie wants -- he wants the ball in his hands as the PG.

What you really want is for their games to be synergistic -- that each of them actually makes the other better because their games naturally mesh. And they just don't. As others have said, you can try to "force" that, but that's pretty much admitting that their games do not mesh naturally. They may mesh in theory -- "if only they would learn to....", but that's never been who either of these guys are. Not in terms of skills, but in terms of the roles they've played their whole careers.

 

[staycoolbruh]

Play Bennett with them if more floor spacing is needed. Just because Dion can't move off the ball well right now doesn't mean, he can't learn. That is what the coaching staff is for, he will learn through experience that moving off the ball can get you easy buckets.

 

[Cavatt]

That part about long 2's being available come playoff time is absolutely true. That is the last thing they shut down. If you can hit those, the team doesn't know how to stop you.

 

[Los216]

Play Bennett with them if more floor spacing is needed. Just because Dion can't move off the ball well right now doesn't mean, he can't learn. That is what the coaching staff is for, he will learn through experience that moving off the ball can get you easy buckets.

Is that playing to his strengths though? Your're asking for players who've been in the league 3 years or less to sacrifice their game for the better of the team. That's something that you ask from veteran players who've been in the league and have really carved out their identity, not 2nd and 3rd year players who are still developing.

 

[staycoolbruh]

Is that playing to his strengths though? Your're asking for players who've been in the league 3 years or less to sacrifice their game for the better of the team. That's something that you ask from veteran players who've been in the league and have really carved out their identity, not 2nd and 3rd year players who are still developing.

That is not sacrificing, it's called expanding their game, that is what young players in the league need to do.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Ok but if I've got Kyrie Irving on my team than I'm not gonna pair him with a player like Dion. Your're not gonna maximize Kyrie's game playing him with Dion. You could if we had Klay Thompson, Sefaloshia, or Terrance Ross. Those guys would allow Kyrie to play to his max potential. The same goes for Dion. You could probably get better production from him if he played with George Hill, Rondo, or Rubio.

We tried it your way and the team sucks and even Luol Deng looks like shit without people that can get him open shots. Your formula requires LeBron James at the 3. Since we don't have that, we need two creators at any 2 positions we can get them and spread the floor with the other guys.

 

[Triumph36]

That part about long 2's being available come playoff time is absolutely true. That is the last thing they shut down. If you can hit those, the team doesn't know how to stop you.

yes they do - they shut everything else down. any competent coach is going to let another team shoot long 2s all day as opposed to 3s, free throws, and shots in the paint. nobody is going to hit long 2s at a high enough clip such that it is advantageous to guard that really well, while giving up another area out of the 3 listed above.

long 2s may be more slightly more relevant in the playoffs, but in the end it's still about execution and getting the highest valued shot attempts. yes, obviously it's harder to do that in the playoffs, but that is one of the reasons you see the same teams in succeeding in the playoffs regularly. they can just flat out execute better than everyone else on both ends of the court.

 

[Los216]

Dion is in his second year in the league. He hasn't become good in enough areas to expand his game yet. He needs to be solid before he starts expanding. You want him to expand his game so he can play with Kyrie but he still can't finish at the rim, poor FT shooter, bad transition D, and he's a streaky shooter. He needs to get better at that before he starts expanding.

 

[Los216]

We tried it your way and the team sucks and even Luol Deng looks like shit without people that can get him open shots. Your formula requires LeBron James at the 3. Since we don't have that, we need two creators at any 2 positions we can get them and spread the floor with the other guys.

What? How have we tried it my way? If we tried it my way we would have a freakin Center who could actually be a threat in the paint and a SG who can be a threat shooting anywhere on the floor. Deng gets the same open shots he's been getting in CHI he's just not hitting them.

 

[OptimusPrime]

What? How have we tried it my way? If we tried it my way we would have a freakin Center who could actually be a threat in the paint and a SG who can be a threat shooting anywhere on the floor. Deng gets the same open shots he's been getting in CHI he's just not hitting them.

We gave Kyrie his spot up shooter at the 2 for months, and Miles even had his annual hot streak during that time. The team still sucked. Kyrie needs to play with someone that can get him open shots sometimes too, and also can create shots for others who can't get their own because he is the focus of the defense.

And about Deng, you are either just lying or never watched him play in Chicago. I can't remember seeing the Deng iso in Chicago. If he did it, it wasn't 10 times a game like here.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Play Bennett with them if more floor spacing is needed. Just because Dion can't move off the ball well right now doesn't mean, he can't learn. That is what the coaching staff is for, he will learn through experience that moving off the ball can get you easy buckets.

The question was why people say they don't fit, and if you're acknowledging that Dion needs to learn a skill he doesn't have, then you're acknowledging that they currently don't fit. I'm also not so sure that intelligent off-ball movement is something that is so easily learned, when the player in question has never really played that role. The core of the problem is they both want the ball in their hands, and not just as a SG cutting to the basket and creating.

For all his other faults, I think MB saw this problem early on. Before the season started, he said Dion had to be a pure SG, and that he didn't want him bringing the ball up the court. And that's probably because there's not a very good record of success with a two combo-guard backcourt. And I think Dion chafes in that role, which is why he was replaced by Miles and is now the 6th man.

 

[Los216]

We gave Kyrie his spot up shooter at the 2 for months, and Miles even had his annual hot streak during that time. The team still sucked. Kyrie needs to play with someone that can get him open shots sometimes too, and also can create shots for others who can't get their own because he is the focus of the defense.

And about Deng, you are either just lying or never watched him play in Chicago. I can't remember seeing the Deng iso in Chicago. If he did it, it wasn't 10 times a game like here.

So you think CJ Miles was the answer to start at SG with Kyrie? Ok........where was the low post presence? Did you forget that Kyrie had his best month of the season when CJ was hot? And again where was the Center who you could dump it down to for buckets. As far as saying the team sucks well the team has sucked since the summer of 2010.

As for Deng I don't like Den g in an iso either. I wasn't talking about that I'm talking about all the open jump shots he's missed the last few weeks.He looks hurt. You can't sit here and say that Deng hasn't been getting open looks because he has, he's just not connecting on them. He's still being misused in this offense but so is every other player on the team.

 

[OptimusPrime]

So you think CJ Miles was the answer to start at SG with Kyrie? Ok........where was the low post presence? Did you forget that Kyrie had his best month of the season when CJ was hot? And again where was the Center who you could dump it down to for buckets. As far as saying the team sucks well the team has sucked since the summer of 2010.

As for Deng I don't like Den g in an iso either. I wasn't talking about that I'm talking about all the open jump shots he's missed the last few weeks.He looks hurt. You can't sit here and say that Deng hasn't been getting open looks because he has, he's just not connecting on them. He's still being misused in this offense but so is every other player on the team.

When we had a low post presence we couldn't get him the ball. And C.J. didn't get hot until January. Kyrie had his "best month" in December when Miles was struggling. I bet he would have even better months (more points and usage, so higher PER) if he took every shot regardless of who is on the floor. The team would still suck though.

And Deng has missed some open threes. Those are the open shots he's missing because he's always missed them. He has never been a good 3 point shooter. Even many of those are contested though.

 

[Los216]

When we had a low post presence we couldn't get him the ball. And C.J. didn't get hot until January. Kyrie had his "best month" in December when Miles was struggling. I bet he would have even better months (more points and usage, so higher PER) if he took every shot regardless of who is on the floor. The team would still suck though.

And Deng has missed some open threes. Those are the open shots he's missing because he's always missed them. He has never been a good 3 point shooter. Even many of those are contested though.

Not getting Bynum the ball is more on the coaching staff than the players. None of the players are being utilized correctly. None of them are being placed in scenarios where they can play to their strengths.

 

[Jack Brickman]

So you think CJ Miles was the answer to start at SG with Kyrie? Ok........where was the low post presence? Did you forget that Kyrie had his best month of the season when CJ was hot? And again where was the Center who you could dump it down to for buckets. As far as saying the team sucks well the team has sucked since the summer of 2010.

As for Deng I don't like Den g in an iso either. I wasn't talking about that I'm talking about all the open jump shots he's missed the last few weeks.He looks hurt. You can't sit here and say that Deng hasn't been getting open looks because he has, he's just not connecting on them. He's still being misused in this offense but so is every other player on the team.

I actually think Waiters is a better fit to start next to Kyrie because Kyrie already plays more like a two than a one. It would make sense to put another ball handler next to him who can attack the basket and get him open looks, and that's not even mentioning that, unlike Kyrie, Dion is very much a drive and kick guy, which leads to lots of open threes.