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Dion Waiters Traded

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Grade the Trade (Waiters + Kirk/Amundsen + 2nd rd pick for Smith, Shumpert, and 1st rd pick)

  • A+

    Votes: 18 7.1%

  • A

    Votes: 68 26.7%

  • B

    Votes: 106 41.6%

  • C

    Votes: 44 17.3%

  • D

    Votes: 10 3.9%

  • F

    Votes: 9 3.5%
  • Total voters
    255
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Most ignorant argument in sports.

"Show me the last star player that _____"...didn't come out til after their senior year, came from this school, played poorly in summer league. Every player is a different person; for the life of me I cannot understand how someone doing it before has ANY bearing on the current player.

I remember some morons on here saying not to draft Kyrie because "Duke players never become NBA stars". So stupid.

Waiters struggled with his shot in summer league. A shooting slump is completely independent of competition, so saying that he should have dominated against this level of competition isn't entirely true. He got where he wanted to go and got past who he needed to, and that's what you should take away...his shot wasn't falling because of being out of shape and being in a slump and those clanks would have been there if he was being guarded by Michael Jordan or one of the DLeaguers who guarded him.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I think it's fair game to be a little concerned that Waiters looked pretty bad for a couple of games as well as a little out of shape. It didn't help that Harrison Barnes looked very good in a few outings. Obviously, you have to wait and see. But if you don't want to read comments about how bad a guy looked in summer league, I'd recommend not going to an NBA web board that contemplates the Cavaliers every move.

Waiters had one game where I thought he looked like the best player on the court for the most part. I would have preferred to see him with KI because the G's were all out for themselves and I think (hope?) that Dion would have benefited from better looks. I had hoped he would look more explosive going to the hoop and have a better pull up jumper. Didn't see either. Doesn't mean I'll write off the pick yet, but I'm not happy with what I saw, either.

I wouldn't be too hard on people who express their disappointment, right now there are a ton of armchair GM's who had Harrison Barnes as the pick at #4, so when it was DWait many were a bit surprised, when Barnes then goes out and outplays the guy in SL, and Waiters comes in out of shape, and you factor in that the Cavs didn't bring the guy in, etc.. yeah, the fan base gets nervous.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I'm not happy this came out after the fact - because it smells like damage control, but I think we have no choice but to hand Dion a mulligan because of the reported ankle injury.

Young players often don't know how to deal with an injury that limits what they can normally do.

Beyond that, every player needs to be judged within the context of their talent, the guys around him, and the guys he's playing against. Derrick Rose was not a good jump shooter and he was dealing with knee tendinitis during summer league, so it's easy to imagine him having trouble getting to the rim as easily as we know he can do.
 
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Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Since about 15 bickering posts have been deleted about it already, let's move on from the Sez question and the Biw999 reply. Asked and answered.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I'll be able to see for myself when the preseason starts if I am able to see any of the games..
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Anyhow, the point that we can all draw from the banter is that the summer league will not define Dion or any player as their future self, nor will even a player's first few seasons in the NBA. Hell, Kobe didn't do too much in his first two seasons in the NBA (a much, much larger sample size than the summer league while being done against NBA talent with NBA players, meaning it's more indicative of future performance than the summer league), and he's a top five player of all time.

The longer time goes on, the more likely that the player we see will be the player we will see for the future. After three or so games with inferior teammates, different rules, etc., is just something that we should take with a grain of salt.

We're heard nothing but good things about Dion's work ethic from his coaches and people who know him, so I don't doubt those things. The good things that have been said about Dion are his to lose or improve.
 
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Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

chrisrich91 said:
Most ignorant argument in sports.

"Show me the last star player that _____"...didn't come out til after their senior year, came from this school, played poorly in summer league. Every player is a different person; for the life of me I cannot understand how someone doing it before has ANY bearing on the current player.

I remember some morons on here saying not to draft Kyrie because "Duke players never become NBA stars". So stupid.

Waiters struggled with his shot in summer league. A shooting slump is completely independent of competition, so saying that he should have dominated against this level of competition isn't entirely true. He got where he wanted to go and got past who he needed to, and that's what you should take away...his shot wasn't falling because of being out of shape and being in a slump and those clanks would have been there if he was being guarded by Michael Jordan or one of the DLeaguers who guarded him.
Click to expand...

I watched him quite a bit during college as he played in the Big East. He has good upper body mechanics on his shot. Keeps his shoulders square, pretty good follow through motion, etc.

However, his lower body mechanics aren't that good. The placement of his feet as he leaves the ground leaves something to be desired. To be specific, his feet are too far apart for spot up shooting, and sometimes he leaves the ground with his feet staggered instead of next to each other. By that I mean that one foot is considerably in front of the other foot. Jumping in this fashion can and will effect the body position at the point of release (i.e. slightly off kilter), and in effect make each shot slightly different.

Improving these mechanics will allow for a much more repeatable shot and an increase in FG%. Releasing from your toes with your feet next to each other will ensure that your body goes straight up in a similar fashion each time.

It looks like the coaching staff has instructed him to tweak this facet of his game, but his muscle memory keeps fighting it. I'm sure if he was just let loose to his own devices his shooting percentage would have been higher... however, summer league is meant to coach these young players up and get them to improve every facet of their game... it's not important to have gaudy statistics as long as these flaws are being improved.

Changing muscle memory is a very hard thing to do an can only be accomplished with repetition. If anyone plays golf, they will know what I'm referencing. When you change your swing you actually get worse at first because your body keeps fighting what your mind wants to do. Once these two functions match up again, accuracy and consistency will become better than what they previously were.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

I'm done, but my point still stands. Sorry if i offended anyone, and if youve offended me i forgive you. Its fun to debate but i suppose it went a bit too far. It happens. I hold no ill-will towards anyone. Take care, folks.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

cafemerald said:
I watched him quite a bit during college as he played in the Big East. He has good upper body mechanics on his shot. Keeps his shoulders square, pretty good follow through motion, etc.

However, his lower body mechanics aren't that good. The placement of his feet as he leaves the ground leaves something to be desired. To be specific, his feet are too far apart for spot up shooting, and sometimes he leaves the ground with his feet staggered instead of next to each other. By that I mean that one foot is considerably in front of the other foot. Jumping in this fashion can and will effect the body position at the point of release (i.e. slightly off kilter), and in effect make each shot slightly different.

Improving these mechanics will allow for a much more repeatable shot and an increase in FG%. Releasing from your toes with your feet next to each other will ensure that your body goes straight up in a similar fashion each time.

It looks like the coaching staff has instructed him to tweak this facet of his game, but his muscle memory keeps fighting it. I'm sure if he was just let loose to his own devices his shooting percentage would have been higher... however, summer league is meant to coach these young players up and get them to improve every facet of their game... it's not important to have gaudy statistics as long as these flaws are being improved.

Changing muscle memory is a very hard thing to do an can only be accomplished with repetition. If anyone plays golf, they will know what I'm referencing. When you change your swing you actually get worse at first because your body keeps fighting what your mind wants to do. Once these two functions match up again, accuracy and consistency will become better than what they previously were.
Click to expand...

Excellent observations. I've noticed the exact same thing and you do a great job of describing it. I's not so much that he fades when he goes up, the problem is he fades sideways and slightly differently each time. It will take a LOT of repetitions in the gym to straighten this out.

As you mentioned he does have some things in his favor. He shot a decent percentage with this defect in fundamentals, he obviously has a very good release and a very good shooting eye to compensate for his inconsistent lift.

If he gets his footwork straightened out and repeatable it's very possible his shooting percentage will improve by a fair margin.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

And just think, the Cavs tanked all year and we took a guy at #4 we could have taken at 7-10. All our discussion and debates for months for nothing. Other than knowing every bit of info about all the guys in the top 10 which are not on our team. Wasn't even a thread or poll regarding Waiters. But we got um, and we shall support him.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Len said:
And just think, the Cavs tanked all year and we took a guy at #4 we could have taken at 7-10.
Click to expand...

We didn't have any picks 7-10. We had the fourth pick. So no, we couldn't have taken him 7-10. Even if you think this is fantasyland where you can automatically get teams to do whatever trade with them you want, he was gone no later than 7. Period.
 
Re: Welcome Dion Waiters

Len said:
And just think, the Cavs tanked all year and we took a guy at #4 we could have taken at 7-10. All our discussion and debates for months for nothing. Other than knowing every bit of info about all the guys in the top 10 which are not on our team. Wasn't even a thread or poll regarding Waiters. But we got um, and we shall support him.
Click to expand...

That sounds more like hurt feelings that you weren't in the know than an objective comment on the merits of the pick.

Eh, I'll admit that I don't follow college basketball very closely. So, I rarely have a strong opinion about picks, and just read some stuff predraft and listen to what people say. Then, I just watch to see how they do. I've got no ego in it because I'm pretty/very ignorant when it comes to college talent.

But the one thing that has stood out to me over the years is how hugely wrong so many of the NBA projections really are, especially by fans who've gotten their sights on a particular player and have invested so much of their ego into being "right". The number of hyped guys (some of whom aren't even drafted until the second round) who just disappear is pretty amazing. Shit, even the professionals who do this for a living end up picking Darko Milicic No. 2 overall.

So, I don't care where he was drafted, or whether he was on our radar. I just care how he plays when the season starts.
 
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