Do you believe in God?

[Zeus69]

Might change my mind if it ever becomes The Big Bang Law, but it's a theory right now, so you're just picking between what you choose to believe in w/o empirical data. I.e., faith.

Some definitions:

Fact: A demonstrable object or event, a phenomenon perceivable to everyone and anyone via the senses
Law: A mathematical expression describing an invariably-occurring phenomenon in quantified terms
Hypothesis: A question that a single experiment can answer
Theory: An accounting or explanation of all the known phenomena

The idea of a scientific law does not intersect with the concept of a scientific theory. A "law" is not a promotion for a "theory." These terms refer to two different things.
~ A law is a mathematical description of an entire regular phenomenon.
~ A theory accounts for or explains all the observed phenomena. It is testable, falsifiable and makes predictions.

The word "theory," when used in a scientific sense (like germ theory, cell theory, gravitational theory or the theory of relativity), does not mean an unverified guess or idea. In scientific terms, that would be a "hypothesis." Instead, the word "theory" describes a system of interrelated laws and principles that have been tested, validated and confirmed and used to describe a particular area of observed reality. In other words, you don't get to call something a "theory" in science unless it has been proven true.

Scientific theories don't die, but they don't stay the same. They are continuously refined and improved in detail. And, every so often, a theory is proposed that beautifully encompasses an "old" theory or group of theories in a much larger framework. Newtonian physics never died, but it was enveloped in relativity. Electromagnetism didn't die but was enveloped in quantum mechanics.

Big Bang cosmology is the best current model for the universe's origins, even though we don't understand it entirely, and it could be wrong. It describes the expansion of space and time. The organization came about gradually due to physical forces, particularly gravity. Gravity pulled clumps of matter together to form stars and groups of stars and galaxies. The pressure at the core of stars caused fusion which generated light and heat. Eventually, the first stars exploded, which yielded the higher elements from which planetary bodies formed, and these were also pulled together by gravity. It isn't an attempt to explain the existence of the universe. Instead, it describes a time some 13.7 billion years ago when the universe began to change from a sweltering and dense state to a cooler and less dense form.

The Big Bang Theory made testable predictions. Then scientists verified those predictions with experiments (e.g., cosmic background microwave radiation levels). It's the best available explanation confirmed by evidence.


As far as the "faith" claim. I can't argue against people's personal revelations or against a claim to argue on faith. I see no good reason to argue anything on faith since that's the excuse you give when you don't have a good reason to believe something. If you have a good reason, you do not have to rely on faith. Why would you appeal to it as long as faith can be used to justify equally competing claims?

 

[Scrote Squad]

and what a waste, just as you get good at living, first your body and then your mind starts deteriorating. I've spent decades fighting that with mixed results.

I think this is probably true for you and many others, but there are just as many, if not more, that get worse as life goes on.

 

[KevinLoveFan]

I see lots of appeals to logic and wisdom here.

The unbelieving Gentiles (White men especially, the powerful "Greeks" of New Testament) always believe that they are VERY rational, logical, sensible, powerful, and smart, and that people of the faith are foolish.

I've seen this sort of thing on endless message boards, Usenet groups, and such all my life. This stereotype goes all the way back to the time of the Corinthians:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:18 and onward)

Interestingly, faith tends to be stronger in women and minorities, who are indeed of MUCH weaker standing and influence in the United States:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/black-women-are-among-countrys-most-religious-groups/2012/07/06/gJQA0BksSW_story.html

The strong, White, Gentile men -- who still love to talk about their logic -- are now in a bind.

You all recognize you've taken advantage of women and minorities in recent centuries. And yet you will die as we do, and boasting bodies and minds will disintegrate just as much as the religionists you despise.

And what are you offering us right now? Pride and boasting in your logic, but also a self-flagellation of how you've treated us through the ages, and a complete lack of hope that anything will ever get much better (you've destroyed the Earth through climate change, etc.).

And since you've placed your confidence completely in the things of this world, and your own selves and powers, you are in misery over your lots in life.

"Our lives are getting worse as we age! People 500 years ago had it bad, and we have it better, but we still die! Life is miserable! And by the way, screw your stupid religion! If your God were so great, He would have fixed everything by now, because I'm smarter than your unreasonable god and you, and I know better! When will you ridiculous emotional women and minorities give up on god already and join us Gentile Greek men in our logic and wisdom?"

The great irony is you're bearing out exactly what Paul taught to the Corinthians. If you liked and were respectful toward people of religion, and had actual hope, you'd have a case that religion isn't really that important, and win over more of the agnostic sort -- but by inadvertently teaching exactly what's in the Bible, and by completely hating it and making fun of believers, you're actually making a great case for it.

If you really wanted to convince me of your position, you'd respect me and stroke my ego by telling me how great and smart I am, because that would render the Bible false. But by making fun of me and calling me an idiot, you're showing me that, yes, the world does in fact hate Christians, and that the Gentiles/Greek men of power indeed place faith in their own wisdom and logic above all else.

 

[The Oi]

I see lots of appeals to logic and wisdom here.

The unbelieving Gentiles (White men especially, the powerful "Greeks" of New Testament) always believe that they are VERY rational, logical, sensible, powerful, and smart, and that people of the faith are foolish.

I’m happy to address.

I don’t think all people of the faith are foolish. I know smart religious people.

I do think they have less evidence using a scientific approach because they can’t prove their case using existing logic.

I've seen this sort of thing on endless message boards, Usenet groups, and such all my life. This stereotype goes all the way back to the time of the Corinthians:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.

I can understand that The Bible is valuable to people who believe in The Bible.

I want to be clear about something.

I assume perishing has something to do with “anxiety” or “lives poorly lived”.

I am satisfied with my belief system, which is constantly developing. I also feel very good about myself and my family and friends. I would assume I have feelings about those things that are quite similar to those who are religious.

I get joy from my creative pursuits, from using my gifts to help others, from sacrificing for my family, enjoying nature, applying my moral code, etc.

My views are likely more self and family focused than these, but I find that they are quite fulfilling.

Do I have moments of anxiety and concerns that I could be less self-focused? Every day.

Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

I also understand and respect that these are aspects of the Bible that reflect your belief system.

Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:18 and onward)

Same. I don’t find it useful to insult people who believe this.

Interestingly, faith tends to be stronger in women and minorities, who are indeed of MUCH weaker standing and influence in the United States:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/black-women-are-among-countrys-most-religious-groups/2012/07/06/gJQA0BksSW_story.html

Ok. I believe this is likely true.

The strong, White, Gentile men -- who still love to talk about their logic -- are now in a bind.

You all recognize you've taken advantage of women and minorities in recent centuries. And yet you will die as we do, and boasting bodies and minds will disintegrate just as much as the religionists you despise.

I gather that you are concerned also with how men speak to women, which is understandable.

Don’t blame you. That’s there.

Not my approach personally. I didn’t sense men were talking down to women in here. I do think people in here generally don’t agree with religion, as I do not.

I support women’s rights to live as fulfilling lives to men as they can, same for religious people.

What I dislike (same as you I think) is when people of any group prevent me from living my life in a fulfilling way.

I have experienced this personally, specifically from people in the Catholic church. Consistently throughout my life. Can’t say I’m a fan of that particular religion especially based on those experiences given the consistent issues I’ve run into.

As far as other religions…I just disagree with their tenets and logic. The people who are fine are fine. I think they should be allowed to live their lives and have their beliefs. I also think they should be allowed to disagree with my beliefs and logic.

And what are you offering us right now? Pride and boasting in your logic, but also a self-flagellation of how you've treated us through the ages,

Us being religious people?

How have religious people treated irreligious people? Or people of different religions?

Leap here.

and a complete lack of hope that anything will ever get much better (you've destroyed the Earth through climate change, etc.).

Who is you?

And since you've placed your confidence completely in the things of this world, and your own selves and powers, you are in misery over your lots in life.

I am not in misery as mentioned above.

I have my concerns and anxieties, but I would describe myself as a fulfilled person.

I could explain to other people how to be fulfilled without religion and sometimes do. I’m also not so certain all religious people are so fulfilled based on my conversations with them.

"Our lives are getting worse as we age! People 500 years ago had it bad, and we have it better, but we still die! Life is miserable! And by the way, screw your stupid religion! If your God were so great, He would have fixed everything by now, because I'm smarter than your unreasonable god and you, and I know better! When will you ridiculous emotional women and minorities give up on god already and join us Gentile Greek men in our logic and wisdom?"

You’re grabbing up a lot of arguments here and putting them together. Why do you keep throwing in women and minorities?

If people really are that miserable, they need to live more fulfilling lives.

I’m sorry for them.

The great irony is you're bearing out exactly what Paul taught to the Corinthians. If you liked and were respectful toward people of religion, and had actual hope, you'd have a case that religion isn't really that important, and win over more of the agnostic sort -- but by inadvertently teaching exactly what's in the Bible, and by completely hating it and making fun of believers, you're actually making a great case for it.

If you really wanted to convince me of your position, you'd respect me and stroke my ego by telling me how great and smart I am, because that would render the Bible false. But by making fun of me and calling me an idiot, you're showing me that, yes, the world does in fact hate Christians, and that the Gentiles/Greek men of power indeed place faith in their own wisdom and logic above all else.

I don’t usually call people idiots. I disagree with doing it. I do find some people to be idiots, but I just avoid talking to them!

I do disagree with some of everyone’s positions, including some of yours. In fact, I disagree with some of my own positions 24 hours after I have them.

But one thing I’ve yet to find myself agreeing with is that religion is necessary for a fulfilling life, that it makes more sense than no religion, or that a god definitely exists.

 

[Wrathe]

Some definitions:

Fact: A demonstrable object or event, a phenomenon perceivable to everyone and anyone via the senses
Law: A mathematical expression describing an invariably-occurring phenomenon in quantified terms
Hypothesis: A question that a single experiment can answer
Theory: An accounting or explanation of all the known phenomena

The idea of a scientific law does not intersect with the concept of a scientific theory. A "law" is not a promotion for a "theory." These terms refer to two different things.
~ A law is a mathematical description of an entire regular phenomenon.
~ A theory accounts for or explains all the observed phenomena. It is testable, falsifiable and makes predictions.

The word "theory," when used in a scientific sense (like germ theory, cell theory, gravitational theory or the theory of relativity), does not mean an unverified guess or idea. In scientific terms, that would be a "hypothesis." Instead, the word "theory" describes a system of interrelated laws and principles that have been tested, validated and confirmed and used to describe a particular area of observed reality. In other words, you don't get to call something a "theory" in science unless it has been proven true.

Scientific theories don't die, but they don't stay the same. They are continuously refined and improved in detail. And, every so often, a theory is proposed that beautifully encompasses an "old" theory or group of theories in a much larger framework. Newtonian physics never died, but it was enveloped in relativity. Electromagnetism didn't die but was enveloped in quantum mechanics.

Big Bang cosmology is the best current model for the universe's origins, even though we don't understand it entirely, and it could be wrong. It describes the expansion of space and time. The organization came about gradually due to physical forces, particularly gravity. Gravity pulled clumps of matter together to form stars and groups of stars and galaxies. The pressure at the core of stars caused fusion which generated light and heat. Eventually, the first stars exploded, which yielded the higher elements from which planetary bodies formed, and these were also pulled together by gravity. It isn't an attempt to explain the existence of the universe. Instead, it describes a time some 13.7 billion years ago when the universe began to change from a sweltering and dense state to a cooler and less dense form.

The Big Bang Theory made testable predictions. Then scientists verified those predictions with experiments (e.g., cosmic background microwave radiation levels). It's the best available explanation confirmed by evidence.


As far as the "faith" claim. I can't argue against people's personal revelations or against a claim to argue on faith. I see no good reason to argue anything on faith since that's the excuse you give when you don't have a good reason to believe something. If you have a good reason, you do not have to rely on faith. Why would you appeal to it as long as faith can be used to justify equally competing claims?

"Best Current Model" just means the best we can tell now. You can have multiple theories per phenomena. Meaning we don't know BBT is right. It's just currently Science's best guess.

I was equating the belief in BBT and a religion as "faith", it's just a different kind. Neither can we yet "prove" to be true.

 

[Zeus69]

"Best Current Model" just means the best we can tell now. You can have multiple theories per phenomena. Meaning we don't know BBT is right. It's just currently Science's best guess.

I was equating the belief in BBT and a religion as "faith", it's just a different kind. Neither can we yet "prove" to be true.

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

 

[Out of the Rafters at the Q]

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

Gravity is just a theory.

If I think I can jump off a building and I won't fall, thats based on faith--same as you saying I'll hit the ground.

Can't you understand that the two are equal?

 

[Wrathe]

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

Well, if true, I appreciated it nonetheless!
Let me simplify what I was saying.

No one knows for sure if BBT or The Bible (or any other concept of origin) is right.

Whichever path you "believe" in is based on non empirical data.

I think it's weird that the Sci-Fi everyone gets in to makes room for both to coexist but in the real world it's just something people fight about.

 

[Zeus69]

A recommended read for those who may be skeptical (or not):

 

[CleveRocks]

Gravity is a fact, not a theory. The theory of gravity as in how it actually works is still debated. The current ideas are pretty counterintuitive, such as the idea of a gravitron which has never been observed.. but gravity is real.. we just don't really understand it..


Religions can be wrong but still useful. I find there are a lot of successful Mormons for example. That says little about its truth. But the habits of telling the truth, not drinking or smoking, not carrying on, and constantly trying to improve yourself, are successful habits...

In physics, F=ma is pretty useful, even if it only true at non relativistic speeds. Or Euclidean geometry is pretty useful, although it's assumptions might not jive with the actual universe.

Our math was invented for accounting purposes and is wholly inadequate to describe our reality. Ideas like pi, or the natural log, or the square root of negative one, are necessary to describe our reality, but our math has to be patched to use these ideas. But math is still pretty fucking useful..

My hypothesis is that there either is or will be an all powerful being. This is the predictable result of evolution.. I don't believe any of us know the properties of such a being..

I will also say that physics is inadequate to explain my personal experiences during my life time so far. I have had two instances of direct communication with something not physical, and several instances of unexplained premonitions.. I also have some very reliable friends who have had thier own unexplainable experiences.. there are many possibilities, and unexplained is not the same as supernatural. But if we are including all the data, the jury is still out for me..

That said, I believe the man we refer to as Jesus Christ, existed in our reality. I believe he understood something about humanity that we still struggle to grasp, and that he willingly sacrificed his life trying to get that across to us.. At the same time, I know that history is rife with charlatans who claimed to speak to people on behalf of Christ or God, and IMO Paul is a good example of this, but nonetheless Christ had a point, and he was all in trying to tell us about it..

Was Christ a God? The God? Define God, and I will tell you. If you mean an omniscient and Magical being that shows up to mess with your life, no I don't think Christ waa one of those.. bu t if you mean a source of wisdom beyond time, maybe so..

The other thing I have learned and sometimes the hard way, is that there are many life choices that are in aggregate, equivalent in terms of human happiness. I have seen very happy Christians, and equally happy Muslims, and equally happy Agonistics, all of whom inspire me to be a better version of myself..I aspire to learn from my differences with others rather than to judge them..

 

[bronko]

Do you mind sharing the names of those books? May help me evolve my spirituality.

Try Carlo Rovelli's "The Order of Time" or 'Reality is Not What it Seems." Also, Brian Greene, "The Hidden Reality", or Dave Tannor, "Intro to Quantum Mechanics, " or Bernard Haisch, " The God Theory." There's an older book whose title I'm having trouble finding which is my goto. I'll get that for you when I can.

 

[Wrathe]

Gravity is a fact, not a theory. The theory of gravity as in how it actually works is still debated. The current ideas are pretty counterintuitive, such as the idea of a gravitron which has never been observed.. but gravity is real.. we just don't really understand it..

I've observed a Gravitron. The fair pizza did not stay down after a few "viewings".

 

[The Oi]

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

I feel like the guy deserves better than that. Who wants to be addressed like that in the middle of a serious conversation?

 

[Kouki]

Raised Catholic but my "faith" went away around puberty. Did the whole Catholic grade school thing. Looking back it caused a lot of harm.

Parents still attend church weekly.

Not raising my daughter Catholic or religious. She can do whatever she wants to do when she can think for herself.

I think it's pretty cultish but maybe that's just because of being raised Catholic.

I fundamentally don't think it is healthy to derive morals from a religion.

Furthermore, religion can give people false moral superiority that really grinds my gears.

I also don't think it's healthy to grow up thinking Jesus made the rocks, and will bring back your dead pet.

I hold absolutely nothing against religious people nor does it bias my perception of them one way or another. As long as it isn't causing detriment to me or the community.

 

[Hurl Bruce]

My mom is big into religion. My dad is big into going to church. I'm not sure that he's super religious though.

I went to church every week until I graduated high school. I liked going there because the other kids there were my friends. Youth group was cool. I really had no interest in the religious aspect of being there though. Once I went to college, I don't think I've gone to church more than just for holidays.

I honestly don't know if I don't believe in God. I can't tell if I am against the notion that there is a God or if my anti-church sentiment overwhelms my thoughts on God. I am anti-church because some of the worst people I know or have been around represent themselves as devout Christians. The things that have been done in the name of religion in our world's history is mind-blowing.

For me, if there is an all-powerful entity, then it allows so many awful things to happen in this world that I don't want to put the effort into believing in it. I sure as shit am not worshiping it.

I'd hope there is a heaven-type place for the afterlife because why wouldn't I? I'm not holding my breath though, and I'm not going to do the whole church thing to get in there. The thought of just nothingness upon death is scary as hell to me though.