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ECF: Cavs 4 - Hawks 0

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It's not just an aching pain. It's sharp, you can feel the tendon stretch, and it definitely limits the mobility. Imagine being stabbed in the leg every time you cut or bend it. That's what it's like. He should just sit. Only thing that helps.
I am aware of that, and I am also aware that it’s the kind of pain that isn’t constant and “flares up” from time to time. If the sharp pain was constant, he clearly would be unable to participate in practice like he is doing now.

What is causing him to feel pain?

I really don't understand this because generally speaking if you feel pain while doing something it's generally a good idea not to do that thing.

I guess I'm getting lost with the whole concept that his continued play is not delaying his recovery. How is this possible?
I’m not around Kyrie or the team, but if I had to guess, he wants to “test his limits” and see how much he can handle, so he has a general idea of what his capabilities are in his current state. He still might not play tomorrow, and hell for all we know going through practice could even be part of the treatment plan the team’s put in place. Before game 1 of the Hawks series Kyrie went through a full practice and said he felt “great”, but we all know how that went.

I’m sure LeBron’s subtle criticism pregame yesterday about how “everyone’s pain tolerance is different” had to have irked him a little bit.
 
Hate that injury took another player in the postseason but glad the Cavs don't have to guard Korver out there anymore. Sure he wasn't that productive but the threat of him being on fire is too great to not defend him.
 
Lot of doctors in here re: Kyrie.

...

If after working out a plan and being examined non stop by the team doctors and then by James Andrews they've determined that running and even playing can't do him additional or gradual harm than there is no sense in him not staying sharp and being integrated into what the team is doing.

I'd just like to understand how this is even possible? I'm no doctor, I just don't get it. How does rest not help? And if most of his injuries were due to him overcompensating due to pain... then why is he playing?

If your attitude is simply, "we have the series wrapped up, he should sit", then why not suggest the same for Shumpert, Delly, Tristan, or just about any other player who is valuable for us moving forward?

This is fallacious.

The Cavs know what situation they're in. They're not desperate to have Kyrie come back to help turnaround a series they're struggling with. So no one is rushing this for the wrong reasons. He's either healthy or he's not. If he feels good on the floor and the doctors back it up, then there is no reason not to play him smart minutes, and in doing so, create the ability to manage minutes better the next few games for Delly, Shump, and LeBron as well.

I think that reason would be so that he could recover and not re-injure himself by playing through pain. Again, it seems counterintuitive to suggest that this isn't a possibility; hence the confusion of perhaps most of the board and commentators in the media.

It seems the most practical approach at this point would be for Kyrie to sit until June as he is obviously not needed; and in fact, is likely to hinder us more than help us.

Golden State is not the Hawks.

These two teams are actually very similar. I've maintained since the start of the playoffs that playing the Hawks would serve as a prelude to playing the Warriors.

It would not be ideal to be integrating a player who hadn't played a minute in two weeks back into heavy minutes against them in game 1, unless is is absolutely necessary.

I don't think we can say Kyrie missing 2 games would require a "re-integration" considering he's played more games and more minutes during the regular season than either LeBron or Love.

Again, I think what we really need here is some factual or medical information that suggests Kyrie is not at risk if he plays or practices. Because again, it seems counterintuitive to suggest he shouldn't be resting.
 
Again, I think what we really need here is some factual or medical information that suggests Kyrie is not at risk if he plays or practices. Because again, it seems counterintuitive to suggest he shouldn't be resting.

So you wouldn't consider the examination of both the Cavs doctors and James Andrews followed by a plan and endorsement that led to him playing Sunday as "factual" and "medical"?

My post is not saying that in "my opinion", Kyrie should play. My post is stating that if in the opinion of the Cavs medical staff and James Andrews, he's good to go, then he's good to go. What do bring to counter argue that?

Do you need to examine him yourself? Analyze the tests yourself? What would suit your need for factual and medical information to the point that it swayed your personal opinion that he shouldn't play?
 
I'm kind of torn on this.

On one hand I'd like Kyrie to rest up as much as possible. But with Korver out we can finally hide Kyrie on defense.
 
My post is not saying that in "my opinion", Kyrie should play. My post is stating that if in the opinion of the Cavs medical staff and James Andrews, he's good to go, then he's good to go. What do bring to counter argue that?

Do you need to examine him yourself? Analyze the tests yourself? What would suit your need for factual and medical information to the point that it swayed your personal opinion that he shouldn't play?

It's simple. He's been cleared to play before and still looked broken. Just because someone is cleared to play doesn't mean you should compromise what's working just to play your starter.

Do we really want to see Kyrie guard Steph or Klay or any comination of the two? That sounds ridiculous to even consider at this point with what we've seen so far from him even after he had a week to recoup and "felt great".

Our defense right now is suffocating and in tune. Why would anyone want to sacrifice that for a guy who can barely run and score? It doesn't make any sense.
 
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It's simple. He's been cleared to play before and still looked broken. Just because someone is cleared to play doesn't mean you should compromise what's working just to play your starter.

Do we really want to see Kyrie guard Steph or Klay or any comination of the two? That sounds ridiculous to even consider at this point with what we've seen so far from him even after he had a week to recoup and "felt great".

Our defense right now is suffocating and in tune. Why would anyone want to sacrifice that for a guy who can barely run and score? It doesn't make any sense.

Reading between the lines of your post it almost seems like you a: think we can handle the Warriors as is and B: prefer Kyrie just joins Love on the sidelines for the rest of the playoffs.

As Gour mentioned, the Hawks might be a good warmup for us defensively as far as handling a ball movement team but they have many advantages the Hawks do not. Better defense. Better interior defender in Bogut. Guys who don't wilt in the moment. Better overall depth.

Taking what we've seen from the Cavs in the Hawks series so far and just assuming it will work with the exact same result is fools gold. To think that we don't want/need Kyrie to give ourselves the best chance to win in that series is foolish.

To also judge Kyrie's defense by the first galf of the first game against the Hawks is not fair. The whole team defense scheme changed to adjust as the game went on and we shut them down. Kyrie was in during the second half for stretches where the Hawks didn't score a single point with him on the floor..

But none of that relates to my main point, whether he gets injured again or not, who is more qualified than the Cavs teams doctors and James Andrews to say whether he's good to go for the next game?

You? Me? Does he need to see 100 doctors?
 
Reading between the lines of your post it almost seems like you a: think we can handle the Warriors as is and B: prefer Kyrie just joins Love on the sidelines for the rest of the playoffs.

As Gour mentioned, the Hawks might be a good warmup for us defensively as far as handling a ball movement team but they have many advantages the Hawks do not. Better defense. Better interior defender in Bogut. Guys who don't wilt in the moment. Better overall depth.

Taking what we've seen from the Cavs in the Hawks series so far and just assuming it will work with the exact same result is fools gold. To think that we don't want/need Kyrie to give ourselves the best chance to win in that series is foolish.

To also judge Kyrie's defense by the first galf of the first game against the Hawks is not fair. The whole team defense scheme changed to adjust as the game went on and we shut them down. Kyrie was in during the second half for stretches where the Hawks didn't score a single point with him on the floor..

But none of that relates to my main point, whether he gets injured again or not, who is more qualified than the Cavs teams doctors and James Andrews to say whether he's good to go for the next game?

You? Me? Does he need to see 100 doctors?

Taking what we've seen from Kyrie, even when he and the team declared him healthy, it does not appear he is able to withstand the pain. You don't need a doctor to tell you that when it's verifiable through ones own eyes since the Chicago series.

Kyrie is a net negative in a Golden State series if he is hobbling up and down the court. His dribble penetration has suffered, his shot has suffered, he defense has suffered. He is not a guy you want to have on the court against one of the best teams in the league if he cannot run the floor.
 
The problem is that Kyrie keeps re-aggravating this injury. He looked fine in game 5, then re-aggravates it in game 6. Has a clear setback, despite 5 days off. He came in game 1 in Atlanta still ginger, then re-aggravates it again.

So even if he's okay, why even risk it at this point? He might re-aggravate it to a point where he won't be able to be effective at all going forward.

One thing that does give me hope, is he went to see Andrews. Andrews did some other things for him that were different, told Kyrie to shut it done for a game, so maybe going forward he'll be okay.

I would dress him for game 3, but I wouldn't start him. If the game looks as if we really need him, then play him, but if not, let him just sit.

I wouldn't literally rule him out, I would dress him, but just not start him.
 
Taking what we've seen from Kyrie, even when he and the team declared him healthy, it does not appear he is able to withstand the pain. You don't need a doctor to tell you that when it's verifiable through ones own eyes since the Chicago series.

Kyrie is a net negative in a Golden State series if he is hobbling up and down the court. His dribble penetration has suffered, his shot has suffered, he defense has suffered. He is not a guy you want to have on the court against one of the best teams in the league if he cannot run the floor.

Kyrie was not hobbled like that in every game. In game 5, he looked great, drove the ball, shot the ball, played 39 minutes, scored 25 points and had 5 assists. Saw it with my own eyes and saw it in the boxscore.

I'm sure in your mind though, he was limping the entire 6 games.

I also have little doubt the you'd be one of the first to turn on Delly the first game Curry scores 30.

We need our whole team healthy and contributing. If the team doctors, James Andrews, and Kyrie all feel he'd good to come back, whether its game 3 , game 4, or the Finals, then the man should play.
 
All we need is a week. So yeah, he's probably done.

The TNT guys were railing about how bad the Hawks miss Sefolosha, I can't imagine how hard the excuses will fly about this.

We're missing our second and third best players right now. Anyone else making injury excuses can fuck right off.
 
Kyrie was not hobbled like that in every game. In game 5, he looked great, drove the ball, shot the ball, played 39 minutes, scored 25 points and had 5 assists. Saw it with my own eyes and saw it in the boxscore.

I'm sure in your mind though, he was limping the entire 6 games.

I also have little doubt the you'd be one of the first to turn on Delly the first game Curry scores 30.

We need our whole team healthy and contributing. If the team doctors, James Andrews, and Kyrie all feel he'd good to come back, whether its game 3 , game 4, or the Finals, then the man should play.

... and now he's literally not even playing. It's almost like he's getting worse. Imagine that.

Why would I turn on Delly? I've been one of his biggest proponents since day 1. He isn't nearly as talented as Curry and I certainly wouldn't consider an injured Kyrie to do a better job. Delly is the better defender, period.

Kyrie is hurt and people need to come to terms with it.
 
Ok everyone take it easy. He is going to practice and test it out. If he feels good, he should play. That's what some of the best sports physicians in the world have (apparently) advised.

Maybe he suits up and gets some burn off of the bench.

Maybe he starts and doesn't guard Teabag.

Maybe in practice he ends up sore again and doesn't play in the game and they shut him down for the series (or until we would be facing elimination, which is low odds).

The bottom line is this isn't simply Kyrie saying he can handle the pain and therefor he is good. This is a thorough analysis involving medical professionals with details that we aren't privy to, and the stakes are high to get him as close to 100% for the finals. If he plays, we should be ecstatic, as that would mean that it was deemed that the pain had subsided enough. If he starts hobbling during the game, maybe we have to shut him down until something nuts like game 3 of the finals.

He is an asset to the team even at 50%, but if we can do this right, we might be able to compete with the Warriors for Cleveland's first championship in 50? 60? Years. So what is "right?" I would think it's going for the sweep so that we are ALL rested by the start of the finals. If you think we would sweep without him, even with that, if he plays it isn't a bad thing, since the team has (with all things considered) put more value on keeping Kyrie in game shape than you have. If you believe the premise that a sweep is a major advantage for all of us (we aren't exactly 10 deep here) and you believe that the team is privy to more details than yourself, then have a little faith and let this all play out.
 
So you wouldn't consider the examination of both the Cavs doctors and James Andrews followed by a plan and endorsement that led to him playing Sunday as "factual" and "medical"?

No.

That would, by definition, be speculation via inductive reasoning; that isn't observational evidence confirming an opinion.

We don't know what that plan was, why it failed, why he's back out. We don't know these things. We're just speculating.

What we do know is that he has tendinitis, a sprain (AFAIK), and a foot injury. From the information that is readily available the primary treatments for such an injury are: rest, icing, anti-inflammatories with painkillers, stretching exercises, and cortisone shots.

According to the NHS:

When you first injure your tendon, stop doing the activity that caused the injury and try to avoid any activities that cause your pain to get worse. This can help prevent any further damage and allow the tendon to heal.

Some form of support, such as a bandage, splint or brace, may help prevent the affected body part moving.

How long you need to rest for depends on which tendon is affected and how severely it's damaged. Prolonged rest is generally considered unhelpful as this can lead to long-term stiffness, so you should aim to gradually restart exercise when your pain allows.


So there is a lot of room for debate here, and hence a lot of room for confusion. However, if Kyrie is in severe pain, then the general guidelines seem to indicate that he should not play.

Again, I'm no doctor, but the one physician in this thread did say Kyrie shouldn't play @WeAreAllKyrieWitnesses.

My post is not saying that in "my opinion", Kyrie should play. My post is stating that if in the opinion of the Cavs medical staff and James Andrews, he's good to go, then he's good to go. What do bring to counter argue that?

Nothing. I agree with this. If the Cavs medical staff feels he should be able to play, then that leaves no reason for him not to.

My point is that none of us actually knows what the medical report says, so using it as evidence seems irrational.

Do you need to examine him yourself?

I'm not a doctor. What good would this do?

Look, I know you're being facetious and I realize there's a few people in here trying to piss you off, but I'm not one of them. We both want the same thing here, we just disagree how to get there.

Analyze the tests yourself?

To at least be able to read them would allow us to deduce a conclusion.

In the meantime neither of us have anything from the medical staff to indicate which side of this argument is right, so again the reliance on evidence that cannot be observed is a bit... odd.

What would suit your need for factual and medical information to the point that it swayed your personal opinion that he shouldn't play?

If someone could answer my original question, that'd be great for starters.

That was, if Kyrie is in severe pain, why on Earth would we want him to play? He does NOT help us on the floor.. Period. @priceFTW went out of his way to demonstrate this.

He can get treatment while not playing, he can have light practice, exercise, etc, while not playing. What is the reason for putting him back in the lineup?

Also, how can playing in the NBA not risk further injury to a player playing through tremendous pain. Haven't we already seen numerous reports that Kyrie is injuring himself due to overcompensating due to pain?

Again, this argument seems odd.

Why would you put Kyrie back in? What benefit is there to doing so? The benefits of not doing so are apparent, but the reverse isn't true.
 
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@MirORich ,

I think the argument for keeping him out is to mitigate and reduce the chance for further injury while giving him 15 days to heal and receive proper treatment.

At this point, with Kyle Korver out, along with Thabo, and a hobbled Carroll and a questionable Horford; we simply do not need Kyrie.

But we will need him against the Warriors (then again, if we can keep playing defense like this...). That's why it seems like a good idea to simply rest him; unless, there is some negative effect to resting him just 2 more games that I'm not seeing.
 

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