Game 21: Cleveland Cavaliers (13-7) @ Oklahoma City Thunder (8-13) 8:00 P.M. EST

[David.]

I just...the Kevin Love needs touches thing. Guys, did you not realize that the offense was not going to run through him on a team with LeBron James? That his shot attempts were going to go way down? Was this not obvious? I mean, I get tonight LBJ wasn't in the game but it's not easy to just suddenly change your style of play mid-season and feed a guy the ball and have the team play off of him when they haven't done it all year. And this complaint has been getting lodged nightly. He's not gonna get 18+ shots here. They aren't going to give him the ball and run the offense through him when, instead, they can run it through LeBron James.

I dunno, I thought this was pretty well understood at the time of the trade.

Is he at least at a higher usage rate than Andy? By a wide margin?

 

[Pioneer10]

Moral victory and all but I felt we blew a lot of easy chances. Cavs have gone against teams with length (i.e. Milwaukee) and should have learned from that. Use the pull up jumper or use a pumpfake. For example, on that one Durant block on AV. All AV had to do was slow down put his back into Durant and he would have an easy shot in the pain. A lot of guys including Love had open looks that would have normally gone down.

Oh well, still should feel pretty well after this loss. None of our guys really played well plus no Lebron and we were in this game till the end

 

[Sebastian]

Completely agree.
Just feel like they're not looking to K Love enough in the post when the offense is out of sorts or the opposing team goes on a run. A Love post up is a great way to get a bucket/foul and stabilize our offense. We panicked when OKC went on a run and tried playing ISO ball (especially in the 3rd).

Against a team like OKC, he should get a lot of looks inside. The best way to deal with Ibaka and his ilk is to get them in foul trouble. No one suggests Love should get 20 shots a game (though tonight he should have), but they need to learn how to use him when the offense bogs down.

Moreover, they should look to start him up in the first quarter, as they have with great results, and coming out of halftime. Finally, when the other team is in the bonus he absolutely needs the ball inside. Dude shoots 80%+ FT and draws a lot of fouls.

They need to maximize what he is effective at.

Edit: It also wouldn't hurt for him to stop camping at the three line. He is deadly effective at mid-range too and he hasn't shot many of those so far; he's a guy you DO want shooting those. One wonders if he is being lazy or so used to not getting the ball inside the arc.

 

[Rich]

Yes, Bosh, Haslam, Birdman worked...very well. We basically have Andy at center, and if he goes down we are not going anywhere. TT is great but not a true big. That is a huge gap.

The best guards are clearly in the West.

If you're not against a defensive center being added to the Cavs, then why argue. We very clearly could use one.

So you just said we needed a dominant center and then tell me Bosh, Haslam and Birdman are enough to win. Then you've just all but admitted we don't actually need a dominant center because whatever those 3 guys are, they aren't that.

And you neatly glossed over my point. Yes, the best guards are in the West but not all of them are rampaging towards the rim every play like Russell Westbrook. You said to look at Westbrooks shot chart as proof of why we need a dominating center to block shots. But not everyone is Westbrook. For example Steph Curry is completely different player, one who doesn't give a shit if the other team has a shot blocking center.

I am envisioning it right now. We trade away whomever (most likely Waiters) and our Memphis pick for a guy like Mozgov, get through the East, only to match-up with Golden State where a guy like Mozgov serves almost no purpose. I can then envision watching Mozgov struggle against the small ball lineups Golden State plays (this is a team playing Draymond Green at the 4) and the fans asking the question "man, why didn't we get a defensive stopper at the wing position instead?"

Point is this. No team is without some sort of weakness but there is no one way to win a title. We've went down this road before, where we believed the key to a title was the legendary stretch 4. We got Antawn Jamison and proceeded to flame out in the 2nd round.

The shot-blocking center is the new stretch four on this board. Getting one does not guarantee a title, and there are very real scenarios that it will do very little and not getting one does not mean we have no shot at winning a title. Look above at your own quote. You've just proven that teams can win titles without dominant defensive big men. It can be done.

Take a look at tonight's shot chart, and especially Westbrook's.

That's why we won't beat teams from the West in a finals playoff. We need a dominating center.

So do we need a dominating center or are there other ways to win titles, like using a rag-tag committee of dudes to play the spot, two of whom are playing out position?

 

[Sebastian]

So you just said we needed a dominant center and then tell me Bosh, Haslam and Birdman are enough to win. Then you've just all but admitted we don't actually need a dominant center because whatever those 3 guys are, they aren't that.



So do we need a dominating center or are there other ways to win titles, like using a rag-tag committee of dudes to play the spot, two of whom are playing out position?

I don't know about a dominating center. One that is long and agile, though not necessarily competent at offense, changes the look of the defense.

I think they can win a title without one. However, that becomes much more difficult as it creates a lot of pressure to play near perfect team defense and may require God Mode performances in the Finals from 2/3 of the Triumvirate every night.

 

[Pioneer10]

So you just said we needed a dominant center and then tell me Bosh, Haslam and Birdman are enough to win. Then you've just all but admitted we don't actually need a dominant center because whatever those 3 guys are, they aren't that.

Going to nitpick and point out that Birdman was a good player the last two years: PER of around 18 and he's definitely a shotblocker from the 5 spot. Even this year, they have definitely miss him as they're interior has been a mess since he went down (Bosh looked a lot better player with him). So not necessarily a "dominant" C but he's definitely a legit traditional 5 for a title contending team which is more then what we have.

 

[Cavatt]

I think Kyrie just was a little out of sorts coming back after that scare. I think they were getting pretty good shoot distribution before then. After they really weren't getting into the offense as well. More stagnant possessions.

Okc defense was Turner up after the first too. They played great and hour their open doors when we missed.

 

[Just Checkin]

The defense wasn't that bad.

A more efficient offense, or having tall wings who could shoot would definitely have made the difference tonight.

 

[Rich]

Going to nitpick and point out that Birdman was a good player the last two years: PER of around 18 and he's definitely a shotblocker from the 5 spot. Even this year, they have definitely miss him as they're interior has been a mess since he went down (Bosh looked a lot better player with him). So not necessarily a "dominant" C but he's definitely a legit traditional 5 for a title contending team which is more then what we have.

And they had Joel Anthony in 2011-2012. Seriously guys, are we saying Joel Anthony is the difference between winning a title and not?

 

[Ruken]

I just...the Kevin Love needs touches thing. Guys, did you not realize that the offense was not going to run through him on a team with LeBron James? That his shot attempts were going to go way down? Was this not obvious? I mean, I get tonight LBJ wasn't in the game but it's not easy to just suddenly change your style of play mid-season and feed a guy the ball and have the team play off of him when they haven't done it all year. And this complaint has been getting lodged nightly. He's not gonna get 18+ shots here. They aren't going to give him the ball and run the offense through him when, instead, they can run it through LeBron James.

I dunno, I thought this was pretty well understood at the time of the trade.

But nights like tonight when Lebron is out, it should run through him. Even with Lebron, we still need to get him the ball in better spots and run more PnR with him.

 

[CavsFan005]

The defense wasn't that bad.

A more efficient offense, or having tall wings who could shoot would definitely have made the difference tonight.

I was thinking the same thing. All these west teams have multiple athletic big guards that can score. Marion can hold his own, but is more of a forward. Its something to look at maybe a guy like Brewer would fill this hole.

 

[Andrew]

I'm not so disappointed in this loss. Weird, huh? Sure, a loss is a loss and it always hurts to score less than the opponent but I saw some resolve and grit in this team, mainly some guys off the bench that has me thinking this team is coming into their own.

Would I have loved to have beat the Thunder? Yes. But their team just got it going in the 2nd half and our starters just didn't really get into a rhythm tonight except for that first quarter. I could dive into the fact I want to see a more offensively aggressive Love, I want to see a more slashing Irving and I want him to take the match up with another stud point guard personal like Westbrook always does. But I got to give it 3 guys in the rotation with a spotlight on one in particular...

I just want to see consistency from Waiters and for the past couple of games he has shown that, I also love what TT does off that bench...both netting 14 a piece.

I got to give the credit...in a loss, but nontheless to Delly. All he did was hustle out there, 4/6 from the 3 and 14 points total plus he was actually put on Durant in the 4th and did a decent enough defensive job.

I really don't like to look for the silver lining in things but in this loss I saw some rotation guys get some burn and contribute to a more than solid effort and this opportunity and more in the future will build up to something special and the norm when the games truly matter.

The Cavaliers got beat tonight, the win streak is over. Who cares, there will be more win streaks, there will be more statements made. This squad, mainly the rotation, took a huge step forward in solidifying their contribution tonight.

 

[Pioneer10]

And they had Joel Anthony in 2011-2012. Seriously guys, are we saying Joel Anthony is the difference between winning a title and not?

If we had a prime Dwayne Wade combined with younger Lebron then you may not. Seriously guys, I don't understand when you have Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving that maybe for this team a shotblocking C is going to be a different priority?

 

[Rich]

If we had a prime Dwayne Wade combined with younger Lebron then you may not. Seriously guys, I don't understand when you have Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving that maybe for this team a shotblocking C is going to be a different priority?

Let me, for the third time, quote the post that started this.

Take a look at tonight's shot chart, and especially Westbrook's.

That's why we won't beat teams from the West in a finals playoff. We need a dominating center.

Do you believe that? That this team can't beat teams from the West in the Finals w/o a "dominating center?" And if so, was Chris Anderson a "dominating center?"

It's one thing to say we need a journeyman big like Chris Anderson or Joel Anthony. It's another to continue this talk about needed some sort of starting caliber 7 footer who blocks shots. Neither of those guys logged 30 minutes a game like a starter would. They were spot duty players.

But I keep seeing this talk about basically needing someone to come in and push Andy to the bench and not only do I not believe that, but I don't even see a player available who fits that description.

And as for Birdman, he logged 71 minutes in the 2013 Finals. 10 minutes per game. Chris Bosh played the vast majority of the minutes at center and they won a title. And that was w/ a clearly declined Dwyane Wade.

 

[Pioneer10]

Let me, for the third time, quote the post that started this.



Do you believe that? That this team can't beat teams from the West in the Finals w/o a "dominating center?" And if so, was Chris Anderson a "dominating center?"

It's one thing to say we need a journeyman big like Chris Anderson or Joel Anthony. It's another to continue this talk about needed some sort of starting caliber 7 footer who blocks shots. Neither of those guys logged 30 minutes a game like a starter would. They were spot duty players.

But I keep seeing this talk about basically needing someone to come in and push Andy to the bench and not only do I not believe that, but I don't even see a player available who fits that description.

And as for Birdman, he logged 71 minutes in the 2013 Finals. 10 minutes per game. Chris Bosh played the vast majority of the minutes at center and they won a title. And that was w/ a clearly declined Dwyane Wade.

Let's phrase it another way: if we lose in the Finals what is likely one of the big reasons this roster as currently constructed will come under scrutiny? The lack of shotblocking and size at the C spot. Particularly unlike great perimeter defensive teams like the recent Miami teams and Jordan Bulls squad, our team is vulnerable to dribble penetration then most.

The minutes argument is not all very persuasive as we are talking about teams which get to the Finals. The core of these teams are typically all very strong but you get in a situation where roleplayers can make a huge difference. I've seen this many times thru the years that happen with journey man bigs going all the way back to the 80's (Mychal Thompson/Lakers, Edwards/Detroit, Walton/Celtics) to the 90's (the immortal Luc Longley) to 00's (PJ Brown with the Celtics). Against evenly matched talented teams, a roleplayer can make all the difference between a title and a going home runner-up. So could we win the Finals without a dominating center: Yes! Would I be a lot more comfortable predicting a title if we had a player like the Birdman you are disparaging: Yes!