Gay rights

[spydy13]

About damn time. Still have no idea why people are opposed to gay marriage. Marriage is a government contract between two consenting adults, and thus religion shouldn't factor into it. Now, if a church wants to refuse to allow gays to get married inside their church, well, that's perfectly acceptable (if a bit douchey).

Still...nice to see us catching up with some of the other countries in the world on this issue.

This is why I wish the government would get out of the "marriage" business. Everyone should get a "domestic partnership" license or something similar. Then, if you want to get "married" you can go to a church.

 

[Otsego Mar]

This is why I wish the government would get out of the "marriage" business. Everyone should get a "domestic partnership" license or something similar. Then, if you want to get "married" you can go to a church.

How about just be happy if you want to be together (and live monogamously if you wish) and leave it at that?

 

[gourimoko]

Marriage is a state institution. But I digress....

According to who?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_marriage

There's countless origins of humans binding themselves through marriage; not all requiring a functioning "state."

Also, I'd point out one of these modern nations is a place I lived; the Philippines.

There is no "state" institution of marriage in the Philippines. You are married by your church, and divorced, by your church. Meaning if you are Catholic, oh well, and if you're Muslim then you're okay.

So, one simply can't look at our situation and say "well, marriage is a state institution in practice, as it is now at this moment here in America; therefore, it's not a human right." Because that would discount the billions of people who don't get married through the state, but instead through religious/ritualistic ceremony.

 

[Otsego Mar]

According to who?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_marriage

There's countless origins of humans binding themselves through marriage; not all requiring a functioning "state."

Also, I'd point out one of these modern nations is a place I lived; the Philippines.

There is no "state" institution of marriage in the Philippines. You are married by your church, and divorced, by your church. Meaning if you are Catholic, oh well, and if you're Muslim then you're okay.

So, one simply can't look at our situation and say "well, marriage is a state institution in practice, as it is now at this moment here in America; therefore, it's not a human right." Because that would discount the billions of people who don't get married through the state, but instead through religious/ritualistic ceremony.

What is the real reason people get married. Rather, what is the real benefit?

 

[gourimoko]

How about just be happy if you want to be together (and live monogamously if you wish) and leave it at that?

Kennedy goes over this in detail in his opinion. There are many practical benefits granted to married couples.

The question is: why would we change any of this? It's working just fine, right? We need to dissolve the institution of marriage to satisfy a those who want to prevent others from exercising their rights?

 

[gourimoko]

What is the real reason people get married. Rather, what is the real benefit?

I married my wife because I believe that through marriage and true love individuals can find salvation in life.

Marriage creates an inseparable bond between two people, similar to having children but without an additional person being involved. Once married, you are always bonded to that person; and the state/Church recognizes this bond and celebrates it.

It's the same thing as asking why I got my children baptized.

 

[Otsego Mar]

I married my wife because I believe that through marriage and true love individuals can find salvation in life.

Marriage creates an inseparable bond between two people, similar to having children but without an additional person being involved. Once married, you are always bonded to that person; and the state/Church recognizes this bond and celebrates it.

It's the same thing as asking why I got my children baptized.

So basically it means whatever you want it to mean?

Inseperable bond? That can be had regardless of marriage....

Inseperable bond as in your spouse could potentially take you to court to seize half of your property?

 

[gourimoko]

This is why I wish the government would get out of the "marriage" business. Everyone should get a "domestic partnership" license or something similar. Then, if you want to get "married" you can go to a church.

Why can't we have state marriages? What if atheists, agnostics, or people of different religions want to marry?

 

[gourimoko]

So basically it means whatever you want it to mean?

I'm not sure what you're asking me Mar.

Are you asking me to define marriage? That's easy.

Are you asking me to state why marriage exists? That's not too hard either.

Can you be more specific?

Inseperable bond? That can be had regardless of marriage....

I suppose it can, but marriage is the universally accepted way, across the planet, of establishing such a bond. I don't understand why we should ignore this fact.

 

[Otsego Mar]

I'm not sure what you're asking me Mar.

Are you asking me to define marriage? That's easy.

You just stated what marriage means to you.

Are you asking me to state why marriage exists? That's not too hard either.

This is a bit more complex than I think you're leading on to.

I suppose it can, but marriage is the universally accepted way, across the planet, of establishing such a bond. I don't understand why we should ignore this fact.

I'm not saying there is a need to. I'm just saying I don't need a state institution to make me feel such an inseperable bond between another person, recognized by a state or not.

The real reason people get married, in my opinion, is because it's tradition and they feel it necessary to maintain status quo in a society.

The real benefit is tax breaks and other related monetary scenarios.

The real reason why marriage exists, is a whole different story.

 

[getBUCKED]

In today's news: Gays and terrorists.

My in-depth analysis: Yay Gays, boo terrorists.

 

[gourimoko]

You just stated what marriage means to you.

Right I thought that's what you were asking. Anyone can go get the definition of marriage though.. Here, I'll do it for you:

Marriage, also called matrimony or wedlock, is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.[1] The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but it is principally an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually sexual, are acknowledged. In some cultures, marriage is recommended or considered to be compulsorybefore pursuing any sexual activity. When defined broadly, marriage is considered a cultural universal.

Do you disagree with this, or is this mostly academic?

This is a bit more complex than I think you're leading on to.

In what way?

I'm not saying there is a need to. I'm just saying I don't need a state institution to make me feel such an inseperable bond between another person, recognized by a state or not.

Right, but you just said this to me: "You just stated what marriage means to you."

So you're telling me you don't need a state institution to make you feel a specific way, but obvious many people do (probably the majority) want some level of public recognition of their union; we call this union: marriage.

It seems like some want to disassemble or deconstruct the institution of marriage, and I can't understand why we would do that.

The real reason people get married, in my opinion, is because it's tradition and they feel it necessary to maintain status quo in a society.

That's not why either myself or my wife got married. I don't think this is the case at all, at least, not in most situations. I could say that this is more likely the case in some countries as opposed to others; but in the Western World I seriously doubt this represents a majority of marriages.

The real benefit is tax breaks and other related monetary scenarios.

That's not true either.

The real benefit is security within a relationship, having children whose parents are recognized by society as being bonded together. No one looks at the practical advantages of marriage as being in a better tax bracket.

Are you married Mar?

The real reason why marriage exists, is a whole different story.

...not sure what to say to this.

 

[spydy13]

Why can't we have state marriages? What if atheists, agnostics, or people of different religions want to marry?

I just think it comes down to semantics, and I think that this would have been a way to solve this issue. Conservatives have decided that the word "marriage" means a bond between a man and a woman. Fine. If you wanted to get "married" go to your religious establishment of choice.

The government could have just decided that they would only issue "_________" licenses (fill in whatever word/phrase you want) that do not discriminate whether you are gay or straight and get that couple the full rights under the eye of the law.

I may very well be wrong, but I think the bigger problem for gay people was that they couldn't get the same protections and rights everywhere as straight people, not that the piece of paper they got had the word "marriage" on the top of it.

The good thing is that this doesn't matter anymore after today.

 

[gourimoko]

I just think it comes down to semantics, and I think that this would have been a way to solve this issue.

I think it's the wrong way to solve the issue because many people want to be married but don't have access to a church willing to marry them.

Conservatives have decided that the word "marriage" means a bond between a man and a woman.

They can't make that decision, it's not up to them. That's the point.

Fine. If you wanted to get "married" go to your religious establishment of choice.

Again, that's not an option for many people. Who do atheists turn to get married?

Spydy, are you married?

The government could have just decided that they would only issue "_________" licenses (fill in whatever word/phrase you want) that do not discriminate whether you are gay or straight and get that couple the full rights under the eye of the law.

Why not simply call it marriage? What is the logical difference for the change?

If it is marriage, but not called marriage, what have you actually changed?

If the answer is nothing, then why did you go through the trouble? To appease bigots? Again, it's illogical.

I may very well be wrong, but I think the bigger problem for gay people was that they couldn't get the same protections and rights everywhere as straight people, not that the piece of paper they got had the word "marriage" on the top of it.

I don't think that was the biggest problem. The biggest problem (I'm actually quite certain of this), was being considered second class and not worthy of "marriage."

The good thing is that this doesn't matter anymore after today.

Damn straight... (pun intended).

 

[Otsego Mar]

Right I thought that's what you were asking. Anyone can go get the definition of marriage though.. Here, I'll do it for you:

Marriage, also called matrimony or wedlock, is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between them, between them and their children, and between them and their in-laws.[1] The definition of marriage varies according to different cultures, but it is principally an institution in which interpersonal relationships, usually sexual, are acknowledged. In some cultures, marriage is recommended or considered to be compulsorybefore pursuing any sexual activity. When defined broadly, marriage is considered a cultural universal.

Do you disagree with this, or is this mostly academic?



In what way?



Right, but you just said this to me: "You just stated what marriage means to you."

So you're telling me you don't need a state institution to make you feel a specific way, but obvious many people do (probably the majority) want some level of public recognition of their union; we call this union: marriage.

It seems like some want to disassemble or deconstruct the institution of marriage, and I can't understand why we would do that.



That's not why either myself or my wife got married. I don't think this is the case at all, at least, not in most situations. I could say that this is more likely the case in some countries as opposed to others; but in the Western World I seriously doubt this represents a majority of marriages.



That's not true either.

The real benefit is security within a relationship, having children whose parents are recognized by society as being bonded together. No one looks at the practical advantages of marriage as being in a better tax bracket.

Are you married Mar?



...not sure what to say to this.

I'm married to the game, bro.

lol




"Gay marriage is one of those trick arguments. Marriage should not be a legal institution. That's the argument you should be having. If marriage didn't exist, would you invent it? Would you go 'Baby! This shit we got together, it's so good, we gotta get the government in on this shit. We can't just share this commitment 'tweenst us. We need judges and lawyers involved in this shit'"

~ Doug Stanhope