Getting the Number 2

[Lyuokdea]

When you look at the dynasty teams, they all had a #2 in place in addition to their star. Jordan had Pippen, Shaq had Kobe and then Wade, Duncan had Parker etc.

While the Cavs now have one of the deepest NBA teams (a borderline starter/backup in Pavlovic isn't even in the rotation), they still lack a number 2.

Most of the current trade scenarios have concentrated on giving away junk in exchange for another above average starter (Vince Carter/Wallace/Salmons/Redd etc.) however, none of those are championship caliber #2s, in the league as those above (Carter is close, but only for another year or two). People have flocked to these trades because they involve us giving up very little (Szczerbiak, Snow, Pavlovic etc.), which we know won't hurt this team at all.

But, trades like this also can't help the Cavs much. You won't be getting much better at any one position. For instance, Salmons is certainly better than West, but West has fit into his starting spot quite well, and has a ridiculously high TS% presently. Does Salmons put us over the hump? I doubt it.

The way the great teams have been built is to get a 1/2 together, and then build around, using the MLE and the desire of older players to get rings to attract the rest of the borderline starter talent that you need to fill out a championship roster. Thus we need not a safe trade, but a drastic one, which nets us a #2, in return for some of the legitimate starter talent that we have.

Here's an example of what I'm proposing:

Cavs Get:
Joe Johnson
Speedy Claxton

Atlanta Gets:
Delonte West
Daniel Gibson
JJ Hickson
Wally Szczerbiak
2 first round picks (I think you can do this by technically making the Claxton/Johnson deals separate?)
2009 2nd round pick

A deal like this requires Atlanta's season to start going poorer than presently, as well as concerns about resigning Johnson in 2010. But with the rest of their team still a couple years away from their prime, and Johnson in it now, they may try to load up talent for a future run, while obtaining cap space for 2009/2010 free agencies.

I don't think that Atlanta would actually work a trade like this, (perhaps we throw in AV too through a third party to obtain another big piece for Atlanta) but at some point we need to find a way to add a legitimate 2 to this team, at a cost of a lot of the depth we have, instead of continuing to try to add small pieces in exchange for nothing. Even losing a lot of pieces in a deal like this, a starting 5 of Z, Wallace, LBJ, JJ, Mo Williams makes you a dominant force in the playoffs. Especially now that they can all play 30 min a game, even if your bench has suddenly become a big weakness.

Furthermore, through use of the MLE, alternate year exception, etc, we can rebuild a talented bench rather cheaply, making us a leading team in a 2009 race.

EDIT: I'm trying to make this thread more about the concept than the actual proposed trade. It seems we have obtained an extra starter quality player who is not starting (AV), and an extra rotation quality player not in the rotation (Pavlovic). So why should we obtain another starter quality player for nothing when it only pushes our current starter quality players into the rotation? While depth is nice, it's not what most championship teams have, they have a #1, #2, #2, and a couple role players, and occasionally they have a rotation quality player who is forced to be a starter. But because of the talent in the top 3, they deal with it. In my mind we currently have a #1 in Lebron (and maybe the best #1 ever), and two borderline #3s (Williams/Z), and then 3 starters (Wallace, AV, West), 4 rotation players (Gibson, Szczerbiak, Hickson, Pavlovic), and two players who could play without getting you killed (Kinsey, Jackson). That's more players than we have minutes, so I'm confused how adding to this helps.


EDIT 2: Second, trade that might work, but might hurt us too much this year:

Cavs Get:
Joe Johnson
Nazr Muhammed
Speedy Claxton

Cavs Lose:
Andy Varejao
Daniel Gibson
Delonte West
Wally Szczerbiak
JJ Hickson

Atlanta Gets:
Gerald Wallace
Daniel Gibson
Wally Szczerbiak
JJ Hickson
2009 1st Round Pick (Cleveland)
2009 1st Round Pick (Charlotte), top three protected

Atlanta Loses:
Joe Johnson
Speedy Claxton
Maurice Evans

Charlotte Gets:
Andy Varejao
Delonte West

Charlotte Loses:
Gerald Wallace
Nazr Muhammed
2009 1st Round Pick

I think this works dollar wise (with maybe a junk contract thrown somewhere), sorry I can't put it in trade machine, but the deal can't go through until the 15th.


~Lyuokdea

 

[-Akronite-]

So we give up three draft picks (including Hickson), Wally's HUGE expiring, and then all our depth at the guards?

Even though Joe Johnson is great, that hurts us a whole lot, and who's to say Atlanta is into that? And they certainly aren't sweetening the deal with Speedy.

And what if it doesn't work? What is our lack of depth screwed us in the long run and we blow it this playoffs.

You know what that means, we lose our youth, depth, and BOTH OUR STARS when they expire in 2010. That could be a franchise killer.

If it works out and we win it all... yay, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

[Lyuokdea]

Like I said it's more of a concept thing. The same sort of deal could be used for any of the top stars, if they're teams aren't competing this year, and worried about retaining their stars long term. I'm not sure if Joe Johnson is worth it, but Bosh/Anthony/Stoudemeier etc, might be. The 2nd deal I wrote up below is almost too sweet for the other teams, but obtaining a top 20 talent in the NBA is expensive, and I'm not sure how else to do it.

The point I'm trying to make is that we might need to ditch our depth for a #2 quality player, and then use our MLE, Eric Snow Injury exemption, alternate year exemption, 2 2nd round draft picks, etc to rebuild a semi deep team in 2009 that now has 2 top quality stars, like all the great teams do

~Lyuokdea

 

[-Akronite-]

You're second deal favors the Hawks sooo damn much.

 

[KingSimba]

do you realize with those trades we would have speedy and sasha as our back up guards. sasha as our backup sf. and in one of those trades darnell and mohammed as our backup and the other has andy and darnell as the backups. you need a bench to win

in your second trade our bench would be
speedy(not so speedy anymore),
sasha(just think about that),
kinsey(shakey backup who might be the best player off the bench),
jackson (playing good but i dont want him as our main backup)
nazi(who?)
jawad(?)

that would go down as the dumbest trade in history. just falt out would send us to the bottom of the nba. worst bench in history. great starting line-up but we would never be able to take them out and still play good

this might be the stupidest trade ever

 

[KingSimba]

So we give up three draft picks (including Hickson), Wally's HUGE expiring, and then all our depth at the guards?

Even though Joe Johnson is great, that hurts us a whole lot, and who's to say Atlanta is into that? And they certainly aren't sweetening the deal with Speedy.

And what if it doesn't work? What is our lack of depth screwed us in the long run and we blow it this playoffs.

You know what that means, we lose our youth, depth, and BOTH OUR STARS when they expire in 2010. That could be a franchise killer.

If it works out and we win it all... yay, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

now way you win a championship with a bench like speedy,sasha,kinsey,jackson,nazi, and jawad

 

[Thunder]

What makes JJ such a better number 2 over a Redd or VC? He's not worth our depth, expirings, and young talent at all.

 

[-Akronite-]

now way you win a championship with a bench like speedy,sasha,kinsey,jackson,nazi, and jawad

That was my point, and that it would hurt us worse in 2010. Not sure why your post was necessary.

 

[KingSimba]

That was my point, and that it would hurt us worse in 2010. Not sure why your post was necessary.

i was just saying and empasizing that it would be pretty much impossible to win a championship with that bench

 

[Lyuokdea]

Why is everybody zooming in on the example trade, when I specifically noted it's a dumb trade, and was the first example i came up with. What about if the trade went to the heat and got Wade/crap deals? Or to toronto for Bosh/crap.

The point isn't whether Joe Johnson is a top talent or not, the point is what do you give up of starting quality players to get a great player?

~Lyuokdea

 

[-Akronite-]

Why is everybody zooming in on the example trade, when I specifically noted it's a dumb trade, and was the first example i came up with. What about if the trade went to the heat and got Wade/crap deals? Or to toronto for Bosh/crap.

The point isn't whether Joe Johnson is a top talent or not, the point is what do you give up of starting quality players to get a great player?

~Lyuokdea

But we have to go example by example on that. You can't say "is it worth it to go after Chris Bosh" when we don't know just how much we need to give up.

 

[LBJHeath]

trade that might work, but might hurt us too much this year:

Cavs Get:
Joe Johnson
Nazr Muhammed
Speedy Claxton

Cavs Lose:
Andy Varejao
Daniel Gibson
Delonte West
Wally Szczerbiak
JJ Hickson

"Might" hurt us????

We trade two young rotational BIGS for a never-was, never will be BIG that dont play, and we trade our back up pg/SG, and our back-up SF/huge expiring contract.. for

Joe Johnson?????????????????????

Joe isn't worth HALF of that!!!!!!

For a minute, I thought you were talking about getting Wade.

You are SERIOUSLY underestimating the worth of JJ Hickson,Anderson Varejao,West and Gibson...and Wally's expiring contract.

I am SO glad you are not the GM for the Cavs.

BTW..Atlanta would shit their self if we offered this.


(EDIT: I didn't read your later post, where you said Joe was an example.

What is the point of having 2 superstars if you have nobody else???

Ask Denver how far it got them...and they had a LOT more of a bench than we'd have if we did a deal like yours)

 

[Shakalu M.D.]

We just have to figure out which team is going to tank and want to rebuild, which team is our number 2 going to come from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UwEmoiRNdg

 

[David]

"Might" hurt us????

We trade two young rotational BIGS for a never-was, never will be BIG that dont play, and we trade our back up pg/SG, and our back-up SF/huge expiring contract.. for

Joe Johnson?????????????????????

Joe isn't worth HALF of that!!!!!!

For a minute, I thought you were talking about getting Wade.

You are SERIOUSLY underestimating the worth of JJ Hickson,Anderson Varejao,West and Gibson...and Wally's expiring contract.

I am SO glad you are not the GM for the Cavs.

BTW..Atlanta would shit their self if we offered this.


(EDIT: I didn't read your later post, where you said Joe was an example.

What is the point of having 2 superstars if you have nobody else???

Ask Denver how far it got them...and they had a LOT more of a bench than we'd have if we did a deal like yours)

Heath shooting down a bad trade idea?

 

[PIP]

Yeah, that's it, show this rookie how it's done, Heath....

If I didn't know any better, I would have thought this was Dominique Wilkins posting this trade....