Indiana's Religious Freedom Law

[The Human Q-Tip]

I agree!

I'm just going to point out that I did not make the statement gourimoko attributed to me that gays should not have the right to raise children.

 

[gourimoko]

I agree!

But that discussion is completely outside the context of this thread, at least as far as what Q-tip has posted in here, which has not been bigoted in the slightest.

As I said, and as have others who have done the same, many have continued this argument from a previous thread.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm just going to point out that I did not make the statement gourimoko attributed to me that gays should not have the right to raise children.

Let me clarify:

You said the following (among other things) to justify to @Cavatt why same-sex marriages should not be legal:

"Because in the case of straight couples children, you're usually talking about children who are equally tied, biologically, to the two parents.. That does not exist with gay couples. Second, I see a benefit to children having both a male and female role model that I do not see with having two moms and two dads."

"a gay couple can live together, and the non-biological parent can still assume a parental role, without getting married, if that is preferable. I know some gay couples, none of whom are legally married, who do exactly that. So I still don't see the societal justification for making it marriage."

"It's better still to have a mom and a dad, so that's the relationship we choose to subsidize."

When Cavatt responded with:
"It shouldn't matter what the gender of parents are as long as they aren't shitty human beings."

You stated:
"Well, I think it does. And I think most people would agree, outside this context where there are other agendas, that a mother and father who aren't shitty human beings are preferable to a mother and mother who aren't shitty. Otherwise, the argument must be that not having a mother, or not having a father, has no adverse effect at all."

"If I had a homosexual child, I would not want to see that child be discriminated against. I would not really care if they ever got married or not, because there's no risk of them giving birth to a child with their spouse."

 

[gourimoko]

@gourimoko - my contention is that if it's legal for a BUYER to discriminate on the basis for any reason he damn well chooses, then it should be equally legal for a SELLER to do the same.

While I agree with the general concept of equal access to the marketplace, I think it's just that: equal ACCESS, not equal OUTCOME. Everyone in this country can access our free market system, but that doesn't mean that everyone should be able to get exactly what they want from whomever they want. If our hypothetical florist doesn't want to do business with two gay men who are getting married, he can subvert your interpretation of things simply by saying, "Sorry, I don't have the resources available at the time of your wedding to help you." All the while the real reason he won't assist them is because he believes it violates his own religious principles. So, congratulations - any laws passed to prohibit discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation won't prevent anything of the sort.

Moreover, I would think the gay couple in question would prefer to do business with somebody who was genuinely thrilled to have their business and would, therefore, provide a better overall customer service experience, rather than trying to legally force our hypothetical religious florist to do the job. Again, using the law to COMPEL a business owner to provide a service that he can't provide without violating his own religious principles doesn't help the consumer in question. It only makes it more likely that both parties to the transaction will come away from the experience unhappy.

So I take it you are opposed to the public accommodation portion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

"Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination because of race, color, religion, or national origin in certain places of public accommodation, such as hotels, restaurants, and places of entertainment. The Department of Justice can bring a lawsuit under Title II when there is reason to believe that a person has engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination in violation of Title II. The Department can obtain injunctive, but not monetary, relief in such cases. Individuals can also file suit to enforce their rights under Title II and other federal and state statutes may also provide remedies for discrimination in places of public accommodation."

 

[Cratylus]

I vehemently disagree. If a person chooses to enrich themselves by entering into the public marketplace, then they must follow the social contract and follow the rules of that marketplace. You don't get to pick and choose what parts of society apply to you. And as a society, slowly but surely we have decided that discrimination is wrong. Therefore, either participate in society and do not discriminate, or make your own private club and discriminate all you want.

I get it. You think the will of the majority should trump the beliefs of individuals, and the individual must be COMPELLED AGAINST THEIR WILL to comply with the wishes of that majority... or else they should get the fuck out of Dodge. Reminds me of a lot of Christians who proclaim that the USA is a Christian country, and if you disagree you should find a different place to live.

Furthermore, maybe we ought to have a litmus test for anyone who wants to open a business to make sure they hold the beliefs of the majority. Hell, why don't we just pass a law prohibiting "bigotry" in any form (so long as, of course, the majority gets to define what "bigotry" entails). That way, we can prevent "bigots" from doing ANYTHING AT ALL in society. Maybe we can lock them up against their will while we're at it... you know, to protect the will of the majority and those who might be "offended" or "inconvenienced" by their beliefs. We wouldn't want malcontents and people who have the audacity to believe something contrary to what the majority believes to fuck up the utopia the majority is trying to create.

You know, many people who are pro-choice shout from the mountaintops that a woman should be able to do what she wants with her own body because IT'S HER BODY. And you know what? THEY'RE RIGHT. But, by golly, if you're a religious person whose beliefs differ from what the majority thinks, you're not allowed to have THAT SAME RIGHT. No, if you're that religious person, you must be COMPELLED to use your body to provide services to people even if it violates your conscience.

Shame on all of you who think it's your right as a member of the majority to try to control what a "non-compliant" individual does with their body. Couch it in terms of "tolerance" all you want, but the fact is: you're simply trying to use force to control other people because you personally don't agree with their line of thinking.

We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.

 

[Bill Walton.]

So let me get this straight... chuckle

A business owner can refuse business to people based off of their sexual preferences because of the owners' religious belief?

What happened to the separation of church and state? Also, why do we need a law for this? Cant business owners refuse business to whom they please?

Sorry if i sound stupid, i stopped paying attention in school around the sixth grade and all of your big words are confusing me. I read one post that had a lot of likes and i couldnt even begin to tell you what he/she was talking about

 

[Cratylus]

So I take it you are opposed to the public accommodation portion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

"Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination because of race, color, religion, or national origin in certain places of public accommodation, such as hotels, restaurants, and places of entertainment. The Department of Justice can bring a lawsuit under Title II when there is reason to believe that a person has engaged in a pattern or practice of discrimination in violation of Title II. The Department can obtain injunctive, but not monetary, relief in such cases. Individuals can also file suit to enforce their rights under Title II and other federal and state statutes may also provide remedies for discrimination in places of public accommodation."

I am opposed to all legislative attempts to control individuals when such control COMPELS them to violate their own individual consciences. And before anyone misconstrues the meaning behind my words... no, that doesn't mean a person who believes that murder or rape is OK should be allowed to kill or rape others at will.

 

[gourimoko]

I am opposed to all legislative attempts to control individuals when such control COMPELS them to violate their own individual consciences. And before anyone misconstrues the meaning behind my words... no, that doesn't mean a person who believes that murder or rape is OK should be allowed to kill or rape others at will.

But just to be clear, in the 1960's, you would've opposed the Civil Rights Movement's legislative attempts because they would "compel (persons) to violate their own individual consciences?"

 

[Cratylus]

I'm not sure how much clearer I need to be for you to understand.

Everyone should have the right to participate in the free marketplace without being compelled to use their bodies or talents in any way that violates their own consciences. That is a basic principle of human rights - SELF DETERMINATION. An ultra-religious Christian florist should not be compelled to use his business to assist two gay men with their upcoming nuptials if it violates his religious principles. A devout Muslim who owns a silk-screening shop should not be compelled to produce t-shirts that say, "Fuck Allah" just because a rabid Muslim hater comes in to his shop and wants them. A Jewish bookstore owner should not be compelled to place pornographic material on the shelves of his store if his conscience tells him to do so would be unethical.

I'm sorry if you disagree, Gour.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm not sure how much clearer I need to be for you to understand.

Everyone should have the right to participate in the free marketplace without being compelled to use their bodies or talents in any way that violates their own consciences. That is a basic principle of human rights - SELF DETERMINATION. An ultra-religious Christian florist should not be compelled to use his business to assist two gay men with their upcoming nuptials. A devout Muslim who owns a silk-screening shop should not be compelled to produce t-shirts that say, "Fuck Allah" just because a rabid Muslim hater comes in to his shop and wants them. A Jewish bookstore owner should not be compelled to place pornographic material on the shelves of his store if his conscience tells him to do so would be unethical.

I'm sorry if you disagree, Gour.

I'm not trying to incite you, but, again, just to be clear; this should be legal?

http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

So.. again, I just want to understand you perfectly clearly.

You are saying that you are more okay with this than the Civil Rights Act that bans these practices?

 

[Cratylus]

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm offended at the implication that I might be in favor of the whole "separate but equal" bullshit with respect to race relations in this country.

Do you think a devout Muslim should be compelled against his will and his conscience to produce "Fuck Allah" t-shirts just because a neo-Nazi comes in to his shop and demands them?

 

[NasstyNate]

I get it. You think the will of the majority should trump the beliefs of individuals, and the individual must be COMPELLED AGAINST THEIR WILL to comply with the wishes of that majority... or else they should get the fuck out of Dodge.

Always cracks me up how those in the majority that historically discriminated against a small minority make themselves out to be the aggrieved when society makes them stop. Hint - you aren't the minority.

 

[gourimoko]

That's not what I'm saying at all, and I'm offended at the implication that I might be in favor of the whole "separate but equal" bullshit with respect to race relations in this country.

But that's exactly why I'm asking 3, now 4 times, the same question.. Because I am genuinely confused.

How can you argue that private segregation should be illegal, but simultaneously argue against the Civil Rights Act that makes such segregation, in private establishments, illegal?

I genuinely don't understand... and I'm not trying to implicate or put words in your mouth.

Do you think a devout Muslim should be compelled against his will and his conscience to produce "Fuck Allah" t-shirts just because a neo-Nazi comes in to his shop and demands them?

No. But I don't see that as the same thing. I'm specifically talking about racial segregation at the moment because I'm trying to understand how far your viewpoint goes.

 

[Sumac13]

Do you think a devout Muslim should be compelled against his will and his conscience to produce "Fuck Allah" t-shirts just because a neo-Nazi comes in to his shop and demands them?

A bogus argument. They wouldn't be refusing to offer services to a person, but rather refusing to produce something offensive. Really, is the distinction that difficult to make? It isn't. I would expect them to produce t-shirts that were not offensive if ordered. As well I would expect the neo-Nazi not to be blatantly offensive to the Muslim while doing business.

 

[Cratylus]

A bogus argument. They wouldn't be refusing to offer services to a person, but rather refusing to produce something offensive. Really, is the distinction that difficult to make? It isn't. I would expect them to produce t-shirts that were not offensive if ordered. As well I would expect the neo-Nazi not to be blatantly offensive to the Muslim while doing business.

Distinction without a difference. In each case (the hypothetical Christian florist and the hypothetical Muslim silk-screener) the seller refuses to provide a service because said service violates their particular set of beliefs. The homosexual couple could go to another florist, but he decided to go to this one (probably not knowing that the florist was a devout Christian). The neo-Nazi could go to another silk-screener, but he decided to go to this one (probably not knowing that the silk-screener was a devout Muslim).