Indians Are No Longer 'Cool'

[Steve_424]

Why is he a good owner?

- He realizes what he can and can't do within the system (doesn't try to sign a bunch of free agents to win...instead, stays patient and builds from within)

- He invests in the team and spends money when he thinks it will help the team win (Wood signing, Sizemore/Carmona extensions, 2010 Draft Spending)

- He lets his baseball people make baseball decisions, and doesn't get in the way.

- He leads a classy organization, and assures being a Cleveland Indians fan is something we can be proud of


For the record, I don't think he's great by any means...he's made many mistakes (like just recently realizing the importance of the draft), but I feel like he's a solid owner. Gilbert's the best, but I'd put Dolan over Lerner in a heartbeat.

 

[Snowblind]

- He realizes what he can and can't do within the system (doesn't try to sign a bunch of free agents to win...instead, stays patient and builds from within)

- He invests in the team and spends money when he thinks it will help the team win (Wood signing, Sizemore/Carmona extensions, 2010 Draft Spending)

- He lets his baseball people make baseball decisions, and doesn't get in the way.

- He leads a classy organization, and assures being a Cleveland Indians fan is something we can be proud of


For the record, I don't think he's great by any means...he's made many mistakes (like just recently realizing the importance of the draft), but I feel like he's a solid owner. Gilbert's the best, but I'd put Dolan over Lerner in a heartbeat.

He did spend.. but he spent it on horrible signings.. like Wood, Daluchi, Hafner and other scrubs I don't even want to think of..

Didn't Dolan tell Shapiro to trade Lee and Victor before their contracts were up (hell, they had another year left) because he didn't think they would re-sign.. He made Shapiro settle on middle of the road prospects for some players who are the best at their positions. Good job at letting his GM do his job.

I guess it's a classy organization.. I mean they charge through the roof for food and drinks..

I don't know if I would say I hate Dolan per say.. I just don't give this guy a ton of breaks like you do.

 

[Chris]

Your spending money argument is pretty shallow. What would have REALLY helped the Indians is signing CC, or Lee, but he apparently couldn't do that. Sizemore has been a non factor for a while and Wood was $20 million wasted.

I'm with Snowblind. I don't hate the guy or wish ill will on him. I just don't think he's anywhere near a great owner, and I'm not lining up to defend him.

 

[Nom]

Here is another way to look at it - everyone complains about Hafner's contract, yet is angry we didn't sign Lee and CC long term. You take a risk when you sign a guy to a long-term deal. If it goes bad, it can cripple your ability to compete (like Hafner's is doing now). Hafner was low-risk compared to a 300 lb pitcher and a guy who had been sent to the minors two years earlier.

If you complain about Hafner, you can't also complain about not signing other guys long term.

Also, in 97 - the Yankees payroll was like $90 million. The Indians could compete against their salary because it was only slightly larger than their own. Now the Yankees payroll is over $200 million -so no matter WHAT the Indians offer, the Yankees will just outbid them.

The cable networks have changed everything. A prime-time television spot in Cleveland is worth $500 per rating point. A prime-time spot in NY is worth $5,000 per point. So while the Indians have STO - not only do the ratings pale in comparison, but the opportunity for revenue is 10% that of the Yankees.

The owner is far from perfect, but he spends an equal percentage of their revenue on salaries as the Yankees. In 2008 after it looked like we had the core in place to compete he spent enough to have the 16th highest payroll in MLB. This after a year with the best record in MLB while only being 22nd in attendance. Even in a best case scenerio CLE isn't going to be much higher than 16th in attendace - so the guy is willing to spend to put a winner on the field.

Had the Peralta, Carmona, Sizemore, Wood, Hafner and Westbrook contracts not all turned out horrible, we would have been a contending team the last few seasons. You can't blame the owner for those contracts - you blame Shapiro and you blame luck.

 

[AZ_]

Wood seems to have been a great addition to the Yankees.

 

[Nom]

Wood seems to have been a great addition to the Yankees.

I'm not sure what your point is? Are you providing this as further proof that the Indians' woes are more bad luck than bad management?

I don't see how Wood suddenly performing better could be an argument against ownership?

 

[Snowblind]

Pitching > over anything else.. you sign at least one of your 2 "ace" pitchers. You can't argue that, nor should you. Pitching wins games and we let some of the best pitchers in the game go.

 

[Nom]

The Twins let Santana go. The Blue Jays let Halladay go. The A's lost Zito. Small market teams can't hold on to these pitchers.

It is easy to just make some bold statement like "You can't let them go no matter what" - but the Yankees can literally offer more than the Tribe can no matter what. Not to mention the players all want to play for the Yankees because they know they will win.

 

[Snowblind]

Yeah, but it's so easy to offer 30mil for 3 years to Westbrook, 20mil for 2 years for Wood, whatever the hell we gave Hafner, That huge extension we gave Fausto, giving bums like David Delluchi 5mil a year, I see spending.. just not good spending. Especially when we had very good talent and let it go. How do you not sign one of CC or Lee, but offer those other guys big bucks? I guarantee everyone would rather have CC or Lee instead of Wood, Westbrook, Hafner.. and this was at the time we had those 2 pitchers. Hell even keeping Carl fucking Pavano would of been nice.

 

[Nom]

Yeah, but it's so easy to offer 30mil for 3 years to Westbrook, 20mil for 2 years for Wood, whatever the hell we gave Hafner, That huge extension we gave Fausto, giving bums like David Delluchi 5mil a year, I see spending.. just not good spending. Especially when we had very good talent and let it go. How do you not sign one of CC or Lee, but offer those other guys big bucks? I guarantee everyone would rather have CC or Lee instead of Wood, Westbrook, Hafner.. and this was at the time we had those 2 pitchers. Hell even keeping Carl fucking Pavano would of been nice.

Yeah it is kind of a catch 22 - if you sign CC then you don't have the trade assets to put top-end talent around him and don't have the money to sign high-priced FAs. Plus, if he gets hurt you are SOL.

If you sign the lower-tier guys you have to hope they remain at their current production and the prospects you receive for the big names pan out.

Luckily the Tribe has been in the top 10 in spending in something like 4 of the last 7 drafts. And they are finally drafting better so the future looks a little better.

If you look back, more than anything, bad luck has killed the Indians. If Lee breaks out one year earlier we win the WS. If Carmona doesn't implode, losing CC wouldn't have hurt so bad. If Adam Miller doesn't get hurt we would have another ace. If Sizemore / Hafner / Westrbook don't get hurt we are definitely more competitive and able to add a few pieces over the last few years.

I think the FO does a good job of establishing a base of talent, but a HORRIBLE job of adding complimentary pieces (Delucci, Boone, Michaels). Hopefully Mirabelli will be better.

 

[Steve_424]

Your spending money argument is pretty shallow. What would have REALLY helped the Indians is signing CC, or Lee, but he apparently couldn't do that. Sizemore has been a non factor for a while and Wood was $20 million wasted.

I'm with Snowblind. I don't hate the guy or wish ill will on him. I just don't think he's anywhere near a great owner, and I'm not lining up to defend him.

They offered CC $18 M over over 4 years. A $72 M investment is very different than a $20 M one...and CC didn't even accept that offer. Comparing CC and Lee to Wood in terms of signings/potential signings doesn't make much sense.

Sizemore was an excellent signing...they've just hit bad luck with his injuries.

 

[Chris]

I wasn't comparing them, just saying the Wood signing was a waste.

I agree about Sizemore, I guess, but it doesn't change anything. I wish I could be as optimistic as you about him coming back and being a star player for us.

 

[Steve_424]

I wasn't comparing them, just saying the Wood signing was a waste.

I agree about Sizemore, I guess, but it doesn't change anything. I wish I could be as optimistic as you about him coming back and being a star player for us.

I had no problem with signing Wood...they needed a closer and they went out and got one. It didn't work out, which sucks...but I don't mind it.

I guess my point with Dolan is that he has spent money...it's just that much of the money spent didn't work out.