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Indians Trade Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco to Phillies for Prospects

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Why trade for a catcher when we have carlos santana??

The top talent in the Cleveland Indians’ farm system is now catcher Carlos Santana, acquired from the L.A. Dodgers for Casey Blake last summer.

Santana, who, by most accounts, is the second best catching prospect in the game behind Baltimore’s Matt Wieters and a notch above Taylor Teagarden (Texas) and Tyler Flowers (White Sox), and well beyond Bryan Anderson (St. Louis), Lou Marson (Philadelphia)) and J.P. Arencibia (Toronto).

"He's a really good athlete, too," said a former member of the Dodgers' player development staff who now scouts for the crosstown rival Angels. "Coming in, his bat led the way and he played outfield and some third base those first few seasons. "But then they [G.M. Ned Coletti and Scouting/Player Personnel Director Logan White] sent him to Florida in October during the instructional period and that's when his catching career began."

Santana, 23 in April, is likely headed for Double-A Akron to start 2009 after posting 64 extra-base hits and 89 walks in High-A for the two clubs. His defense is coming along, but considering he’s only been catching since instructs in 2006, he profiles to above-average overall, and probably better as he hits his peak.

"I really liked him as a third baseman originally, that's how good his feet were. He reminded me of a Melvin Mora type defensively. But he could throw and was built well. His physical abilities profile well behind the plate and he looked awfully good back there this year.

"His bat will always be his best attribute; it could have played out in right (field) or at third. But it's an even bigger value with the gear on."

Casey Blake is a decent player and all, but star-potential catchers are as rare as proper English in the Federline household, and the wound goes even deeper with the recent rumors that Russell Martin’s defensive abilities are already decaying. Martin may need to ultimately switch back to his natural position of third base, where his bat really doesn’t play all that well.

A.J. Ellis, the Dodgers next available catcher, is an average defender and a capable bat, having hit .321/.436/.456 at Triple-A Las Vegas, but at 28 years of age this spring, his overall development is nearly complete and he doesn’t profile as a regular.

If Martin continues to slip, the Dodgers are left searching for a catcher – the toughest position in baseball to fill with quality – instead of simply plugging in a high-probability prospect – Santana. That’s going to be costly, in either trade talent or money – or both.

"Martin's obviously going to be starting 2009 behind the plate," said an NL scout of a rival club. "He'd have to slip even more, or show some major signs of the grind robbing him of offense, but if he has to move, where do you move him now? Probably to another team, I guess.

"I'd leave Martin at catcher for 115-120 games a season until he's simply bad, though, and he's not there yet, for sure. But I have no idea what they do if that happens. It would sure be nice to have a prospect to help out!"

While you have to applaud the idea of going for it when your ballclub has a chance to break through, I have to question the process that went into dealing away Santana in trade package that landed them a 35-year-old, slightly above-average player for two months, even if Santana remains merely a prospect with no guarantees.
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MNCavsfan said:
If they were willing to give up Drabek they would have gone to the Blue Jays for their cy young winner.
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How the FUCK does that help us/make us feel better after this?
 
 
mixman said:
Carlos Carrasco: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Carlos-Carrasco.shtml

Jason Knapp: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/K/Jason-Knapp.shtml

Jason Donald: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Jason-Donald.shtml

Lou Marson: http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/M/Louis-Marson.shtml

2 Pitchers, a SS and a C? I hope this deal is bullshit.

These players are the 2nd, 10th, 4th, and 3rd best players in there minor leagues, According to Baseball America.
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Exactly. Add them all up and you get number 19. Bob Feller wore #19.

Fans... the Tribe is getting BOB FREAKIN FELLER! 8x All-star, retired number dude. Unfortunately, he is now old and sucks. This deal is old and it sucks. Hope that was funny, cuz the deal ain't funny and I ain't laughing. Sure, sure... any of these prospects could develop into an All-star... but for a Cy Young pitcher in his prime off a bad team? That's all he could get? OMFG.
 
elcheato said:
If I recall older posts, you're not a fan anymore.
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Well then you recall wrong.

However, i do believe I said if they did this exact trade, I was going to not be an Indians fan anymore...and honestly, it's hard not to hold true to that promise at the moment, considering we just got taken Gasol style.
 
Amherstcavsfan said:
Well then you recall wrong.

However, i do believe I said if they did this exact trade, I was going to not be an Indians fan anymore...and honestly, it's hard not to hold true to that promise at the moment, considering we just got taken Gasol style.
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#2, #3, #4 and #10 ranked prospects for Cliff Lee is a terrible deal? I'm almost certain any deal not involving Drebeck with them, you would instantly say it sucks.
 
elcheato said:
#2, #3, #4 and #10 ranked prospects for Cliff Lee is a terrible deal? I'm almost certain any deal not involving Drebeck with them, you would instantly say it sucks.
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Well, just because they're high up in the organization doesn't mean they're any good. None of those players were in Baseball America's top 100 overall.
 
Any deal they made with Drebeck would be for Halladay. We took half their farm system in this trade and people are complaining jeez. We were going to suck with Cliff Lee at least we may suck less in the future now.
 
I almost forgot to post about my favorite part of the deal, Ben Francisco is finally gone.
 
elcheato said:
#2, #3, #4 and #10 ranked prospects for Cliff Lee is a terrible deal? I'm almost certain any deal not involving Drebeck with them, you would instantly say it sucks.
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Once again, let's break this down.

Donald cannot hit, he hit before, got to Triple A, cannot hit, is 25.

Carrasco is having control problems in Triple A, may become a MOR starter

Marson is a catcher, the position where we need literally no help, and has little to no power.

Knapp is 19 and has been shut down for the rest of the season with shoulder problems.
 
Amherstcavsfan said:
Once again, let's break this down.

Donald cannot hit, he hit before, got to Triple A, cannot hit, is 25.

Carrasco is having control problems in Triple A, may become a MOR starter

Marson is a catcher, the position where we need literally no help, and has little to no power.

Knapp is 19 and has been shut down for the rest of the season with shoulder problems.
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I cannot stress.

How bad this deal is.

It boggles my mind. Words cannot even describe how angry I am. None of these prospects screams "game changer". Knapp is probably the best prospect and...big surprise, he's shut down.

Stop mentioning pre season rankings or whatever, people. The Phillies have a run of the mill farm system anyways.
 
SIAP, but found this article on a website called PhuturePhillies.com

I’ve been meaning to take a look at my top 30 rankings from this past winter, so I suppose now is as good a time as any. I’ll just give a brief sentence on each, and whether I think their stock is up, down, or unchanged. This isn’t my current top 30 ranking, I’m not moving anyone around from my prior ranking, just giving a brief comment on each guy. So, here goes, check below the fold…

*1. Carlos Carrasco, RHP – Carrasco’s peripherals have far outpaced his raw ERA. He’s sporting a 4.97 ERA but only a 3.84 FIP. A 1.36 WHIP isn’t exceptional, he’s also been HR prone (13 in 108 IP), but he’s still striking out a batter per inning and still has time on his side. With the strength in the system, STOCK DOWN.

*2. Lou Marson, C – Marson got off to a real slow start after coming back from Philadelphia, but he’s hitting .356 since June 1. The power is still non-existent (only 4 XBH since June 1, all 2B), but he’s drawing walks. As with Carrasco, the guys behind him have pushed his STOCK DOWN

3. Kyle Drabek, RHP – Its been a big year for Drabek, who is now fully recovered from Tommy John surgery and surging up every prospect list around. His peripherals back up the ERA, the only red flag at this point is the innings pitched; after throwing only 54 innings last year, he’s already doubled that total this year with 114 IP and counting. I think he’s the best prospect in the system, so STOCK UP

*4. Jason Donald, SS – As much of an up year as its been for Drabek, its been an equally down year for Donald. He didn’t make the big club out of spring training, then put up a .616 OPS at AAA before suffering an injury. The problem for Donald is that he’s 24 now, turns 25 in September, and needs to get back on track fast. 2009 is looking like a lost year, which means its hard to figure out exactly where he fits in next season and beyond. STOCK DOWN


So it basically looks like the Phillies gave us their pieces and parts not part of their future plans, all with glaring issues.

Way to go Shapiro. :lame:
 
cmstophe said:
I give Shapiro credit for his trades but this looks HORRIBLE on the surface. Cliff Lee is a Cy Young winner. You need to get Drabek for him.
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Every trade for prospects looks horrible on the surface. Hell, Drabek was ranked below 3 of the guys we got going into the year. It's all relative. Every single big player dump that Shapiro has done has been mercilessly ripped apart by fans and every single one has netted us a wealth of talent.

I mean... I want to punch holes in the walls with you but I've come to a realization that this is our mode of operation so long as Dolan is the owner. Come to grips with that and just hope for the best... besides, you need to have a good punching hand left after we trade Victor. :chuckles:
 
elcheato said:
I'm guessing none of you were fans during the time we traded Bartolo Colon
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Funny you should bring that up, because now we've traded two out of the 3 players excellent players from that deal and we've won................oh that's right nothing.






I'll probably be ok with this deal later as I come back down to earth and realize that baseball is rigged but I just spilled coffee all over my pants and burned my dick and now I read this article. :banghead:
 
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