Johnny Manziel: Swan Won't Return His Calls

[The Human Q-Tip]

I think it's a pretty horrible decision to take away your 1st round QBs time with the offense so the field goal unit can be potentially more threatening. Johnny isn't here to split his time between special teams and the offense...

We're talking passed each other. How much time is the offense actually practicing on a given day?

I don't think having Manziel prep to be the holder would take away any time at all from his work with the offense. You could even schedule it for a 20 minute session after practice is over.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

By the way, here's what Wikipedia says on the holder issue:

Backup quarterback[edit]

The rationale for having a backup quarterback holding is that the quarterback is accustomed to receiving snaps from center and long snaps from the shotgun formation. He also provides a threat for a fake field goal since the quarterback can throw a pass on such plays. Additionally, in the event of a bad snap and an aborted kick attempt, the holder might have to become the quarterback for the play, so having an actual quarterback helps in that regard.

Years ago in the NFL, backup quarterbacks generally held for field goal kicks. Having the backup quarterback play as the holder has faded out in the NFL, mainly due to a rule in the NFL's collective bargaining agreement that prohibited a team's third-string quarterback from playing except in emergencies (this was repealed in the 2011 CBA).

I'm not someone who thinks "we have to get Manziel on the field somehow and gee, this would be neat." But the point made above that it might force the defense to back off the rush a bit because of the much more significant threat of a fake is a pretty big deal.

 

[Soda]

By the way, here's what Wikipedia says on the holder issue:

It also says:

In today's NFL, most teams use their punter as holder, the logic being that punters and placekickers have more free-time during practice, and punters are used to handling snaps from the long snapper.

And also, about current teams:

There are a few NFL teams that still use a quarterback as their holders.

New Orleans Saints - The Saints tend to run more fake field goals than any other team, and due to that they generally keep a backup in as their holder (this keeps opposing defenses in more of a zone coverage, and also helps the prevent blocked field goals). With previous holder Chase Daniel signing with the Kansas City Chiefs during the 2013 free agency period, coach Sean Payton will have to find a new holder for Garrett Hartley.

Dallas Cowboys - When Tony Romo was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys, he was their backup quarterback, and as the backup quarterback, part of his job was to be the team's holder, and he is the only current starting quarterback to be the team's official holder. (Romo was replaced by the punter in 2010, but due to many mishandled snaps, which resulted in missed field goals, Romo returned as the team's official holder). The Cowboys hired a more experienced holder, Brian Moorman, in 2012; Moorman left the team at the end of the season.

Buffalo Bills - The Bills assigned backup quarterback Tyler Thigpen as the holder for placekicker Rian Lindell in 2012. This was due to a midseason change at the punter position, in which rookie Shawn Powell replaced Moorman on the roster. Moorman returned the next season.

Denver Broncos - The Broncos used to use former starting quarterback Jake Plummer as the holder and continued to do so after he was benched in favor of Jay Cutler. After Plummer retired the Broncos began to use their punter as the holder.

Washington Redskins - Starting quarterback Joe Theismann held for Mark Moseley from the late 1970s until he suffered his career-ending broken leg during a 1985 Monday Night Football game vs. the New York Giants.

Find me a QB worth a damn who is holding now. Back-up or starting. The move of having the QB hold is fading, not coming back.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Manziel is probably running the second team offense against the first team defense. That is why most of the NFL has gone to the punter holding for the kicker. They spend most of practice off to the side together with the long snapper while the offense and defense prepares for the new opponent's scheme.

 

[AZ_]

I think it's a pretty horrible decision to take away your 1st round QBs time with the offense so the field goal unit can be potentially more threatening. Johnny isn't here to split his time between special teams and the offense...

How long do you think they work on this stuff?

 

[AZ_]

Manziel is probably running the second team offense against the first team defense. That is why most of the NFL has gone to the punter holding for the kicker. They spend most of practice off to the side together with the long snapper while the offense and defense prepares for the new opponent's scheme.

This could be our worst fears realized.

Manziel is tearing up the first team defense so badly during the week that they're gassed by the time Sunday rolls around.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Manziel is probably running the second team offense against the first team defense. That is why most of the NFL has gone to the punter holding for the kicker. They spend most of practice off to the side together with the long snapper while the offense and defense prepares for the new opponent's scheme.

Why not do long-snapping for FG's after regular practice? it's not exactly strenuous. And I'd add that the first and second teams aren't exactly running plays continuously during practices. Not even close, because they don't want to wear out the QB's arms, etc.. People are acting like the entire day is taken up by QB's working with the offenses, and it just isn't true.

 

[Soda]

Why not do long-snapping for FG's after regular practice? it's not exactly strenuous. And I'd add that the first and second teams aren't exactly running plays continuously during practices. Not even close, because they don't want to wear out the QB's arms, etc.. People are acting like the entire day is taken up by QB's working with the offenses, and it just isn't true.

I'm guessing the CBA limits that ability... How would you react if your employer went against your agreed upon hours so you can work on something new and outside your job description for no extra pay? Practices are for long-snapping and other football activities.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

And also, about current teams:

New Orleans Saints - The Saints tend to run more fake field goals than any other team, and due to that they generally keep a backup in as their holder (this keeps opposing defenses in more of a zone coverage, and also helps the prevent blocked field goals). With previous holder Chase Daniel signing with the Kansas City Chiefs during the 2013 free agency period, coach Sean Payton will have to find a new holder for Garrett Hartley.

Uh, yeah. The ability to run good fakes and reduce the chances of a block are not trivial, and seem to me to be worth a bit of extra practice time.

 

[AZ_]

I'm guessing the CBA limits that ability... How would you react if your employer went against your agreed upon hours so you can work on something new and outside your job description for no extra pay? Practices are for long-snapping and other football activities.

That seems like a brick wall which would be nearly impossible to get around.

 

[Soda]

That seems like a brick wall which would be nearly impossible to get around.

I'm all ears, boss.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Football nerd alert! Bill Belichick explains history of using the punter as the holder

Jeff Howe

Have you ever wondered why Bill Belichick, or any coach, has used the punter as the holder in the field goal operation? Well then, this will be the best day of your life.

Belichick explained in great detail today why that's been the case, and it was some really insightful stuff.

"You want your best holder to be the holder," Belichick said. "I think that the key thing in the NFL now is just with the opportunity of your specialist. Again, the game has evolved from when I came into the league. Most teams had kicker. Most of the punters played another position, and I would say all of the long snappers played another position, either center or linebacker or tight end or whatever it was. Then punters became pretty much specialized so every team carried a kicker and a punter. Occasionally you had a guy who could do both, but that was more the exception than the rule.

"Eventually, teams started going to just pure long snappers. Like Steve DeOssie, who came into the league as a linebacker/snapper, kind of ended as a snapper and was one of the best snappers in the league. He was part of that transition and in that era where teams went and committed fully to a long snapper that played no other position. You’ve also seen that now in college. Most college teams have a pure snapper as well as a pure kicker and a pure punter.

"I just think that when you have that situation, if your punter can hold, then the amount of snaps and time that those guys get to practice together, work together, meet together, watch film together, watch slow-motions films, concentrate on the technique as opposed to the backup quarterback or somebody like that who has a lot of other responsibilities. It’s just a time -– if your holder can be your punter, then the amount of practice time, consistency, preparation time that those guys have together just so outweighs what it would be with any other player.

"Receivers have been holders. Then you go through the whole thing, if it’s a position player like a defensive back or like it was back in the ‘60s, a Jimmy Patton or a receiver and something happens to them, now whose your backup player because those guys are regular players. Not only do you have to replace them at their offensive or defensive position, you have to replace them in the kicking game, so it just cuts into your depth. Back when you had 36, 37 players, that was a whole different ballgame. Everybody doubled up in one way or another. I think that’s the way it is on most teams. Most teams punters are the holder and the snappers are the snappers and kickers are the kickers. That’s the way it is in college so we’re recruiting players that are in that very specialized phase themselves."

Has Belichick done this since arriving in New England in 2000?

"Yeah, I think even going back to, not the Giants because Dave (Jennings) didn’t hold and Sean (Landetta)didn’t hold, but ever since then, (Tom) Tupa held at Cleveland," Belichick said. "And so I’d say from somewhere in the early ‘90s that that was more the norm. Prior to that, some did, some didn’t. Danny Whiteheld for Dallas for years and so forth. There was kind of that transition there from maybe ’85 to the early-‘90s. I’d say by around ’95 or so, it was pretty much one snapper, one kicker, one punter on every team. Also as the roster numbers have creeped up as well, that’s made it affordable. When you’re down in the 30s then it’s a lot tougher to carry one of each of those; that slices into your roster pretty good. The rules have made it much easier to do."

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patr...lert_bill_belichick_explains_history_of_using

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I'm guessing the CBA limits that ability... How would you react if your employer went against your agreed upon hours so you can work on something new and outside your job description for no extra pay? Practices are for long-snapping and other football activities.

It doesn't.

Practices in pads are limited to three hours per day, but teams are only permitted an average of one per week so there are no restrictions at all on every other day. More importantly, even on days with pads, walkthroughs before or after practice are not limited.

https://www.nflplayers.com/About-us/CBA-Download/

C'mon, is this really that bad of an idea? Adding the ability to run credible fake plays out of the FG formation, slowing down the speed of the rush on critical FG attempts...that's important stuff, isn't it?

 

[AZ_]

The only stipulations involving practice time to my knowledge are limitations on full-contact practices a team can have during the regular season.

To say nothing of the fact that any team with even half a brain could find the time to work in 10 minutes of taking your backup QB over to do some drills with the special teams unit and not have it negatively affect his time with the offense.

Doesn't exactly seem like rocket science.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Obviously these idiot coaches like Belichick will never make anything of their lives without Q-tip and b00bie giving advice on how to conduct practices...