Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[LeShaq]

This is a big reason why the hype train got all started up in the first place.

At the moment Kevin Love is one of the worst defensive players in the NBA. Considering we have no center backing him up, that has a huge effect on us. I don't see how he can possibly be considered the best power forward in light of that.

I guess you don't agree, but to me it looks like he gets all those rebounds because instead of defending properly he just hopes they will miss instead. That sort of BS doesn't work when you don't have a center slamming anyone who dares take it to the hoop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not laying all blame on KL. I think he could be a great asset if we construct our team the right way. But right now I believe the defensive hole he brings is our biggest weakness and if not fixed it's going to haunt us in the playoffs.

As I said earlier, as long as no one in here is David Griffin, I won't start to get worried. I trust Griffin understands the level of player Love is. Even if some of my fellow Cavs fans don't.

All the people who had a higher PER than Love last year in the NBA -

Kevin Durant
LeBron

All the people who had a higher win shares per 48 minutes than Love last year in the NBA -

Kevin Durant
Chris Paul
LeBron

Those are the complete lists.

Of course we need better post defense. I think Love is shorter than LeBron is. Imagine if LeBron were trying to protect the rim. How do you think he would be viewed?

Love has a better box plus minus defensive rating than these players on our team -

Kyrie
Delly
Dion

I said in the rant thread and will repeat it here that I would trade Kyrie long before I would trade Love. Love isn't going anywhere, and he will get the max and should get the max.

The guy isn't being used properly and he's still averaging 18/11 while playing with LeBron.

If I want to complain about the defense of one of the big three, Love would not be the first guy I would be ripping.

 

[LeShaq]

I just looked up the stats of every big man LeBron has played with and how they did when they played with LeBron. Here are the best seasons from that list by per game numbers, true shooting percentage, PER, win shares per 48 minutes, and box plus minus (which has offensive and defensive components; a higher positive number is better). The red highlighted numbers are the best/most a big man has ever done/had with LeBron.

Boozer 2003-04
16/11 == 12.0 FGA == 20.8 PER == 57% TS
.174 ws == +1.9 BPM

Zydrunas 2004-05
17/09 == 12.6 FGA == 19.5 PER == 55% TS
.149 ws == +0.9 BPM

Bosh 2010-11
19/08 == 13.7 FGA == 19.4 PER == 57% TS
.177 ws == +0.3 BPM

Bosh 2011-12
18/08 == 14.2 FGA == 18.9 PER == 55% TS
.165 ws == +0.0 BPM

Bosh 2012-13
17/07 == 12.3 FGA == 20.0 PER == 59% TS
.175 ws == +1.1 BPM

Bosh 2013-14
16/07 == 12.1 FGA == 19.0 PER == 60% TS
.152 ws == +0.3 BPM

Love 2014-15
18/11 == 12.8 FGA == 19.1 PER == 58% TS
.165 ws == +2.2 BPM

As you can see, Love already is on pace to average the most (PPG + RPG) of any big man LeBron has ever played with before even though Love's FGA per game number is about in the middle of the above list. Love is also on pace to have the best box plus minus figure. Love is not far away from Boozer in rebounds per game (Boozer 11.4 vs Love 10.5) nor Boozer's 20.8 PER. He's only 1 point away from Bosh's 19 (it's actually 18.7 vs 17.6), 2% away from Bosh's 60% TS, and just .012 away from Bosh's win shares per 48 minutes figure at its best.

Unless we think we are going to get Anthony Davis or someone like that as a big man to pair with LeBron, I think Love is doing pretty well here. And we're only 24 games in. It's going to get better. And it will get a lot better, I would think, once we get a real center to help out.

 

[Splitz]

I can't really accept much Love criticism at this point. Every damn person here knew what his limitations were defensively, it's on the front office to get a guy next to him that can actually help. I don't think anybody going into this season was expecting a defensive anchor at the PF position. He rebounds well because he is ignoring his man? I reject that.

We simply do not have the personnel to be a top defensive team consistently without max effort at all times and that is just not going to happen. We need to put somebody next to Love that can cover up some deficiencies. We need a wing defender that is not a dinosaur. I'm sure Griffin knew what we were dealing with at the beginning of the season and was hoping that our offensive talent and the great mind of Blatt could mask these deficiencies but it hasn't happened. Better believe he is putting in work on the phones. We lost some assets that probably shouldn't have been put on the table in off season and now the job just got a lot more difficult. Love is and will be the better long term shot at a Championship than Wiggins. We just need to put him in a position to succeed because we need his post scoring and we need to filter much of the offense through him. He's just too highly skilled not to.

 

[LeShaq]

One other thing I should add about Love, and Splitz' post reminded me of this, is that he is the best passing big man LeBron has ever played with.

Love is averaging 2.4 assists per game right now. The only big man on the list I put above who averaged even 2 assists per game while playing with LeBron was Boozer with 2.0 back in 2003-04.

Love is insanely skilled. Very few players in the league have his level of skill. He has his limits, of course, but I think those limits are easily overstated.

What Love Can Do (Strengths)

Score
Have the offense run though him
Rebound (offensive and defensive)
Touchdown outlet passing
Pace increasing outlet passing
Shoot from anywhere on the court
Post up and draw fouls
Pass
High basketball IQ
Run well on the break


What Love Can't Do (Weaknesses)

Protect the rim (lacks length & explosiveness)
Be an interior defense anchor
Move his feet well on defense (thick legged)
Play above average defense consistently


Simply put, Love lacks the lateral footspeed, height, length and explosiveness to be a standout defender or interior defensive anchor/rim protector. As long as he is not expected to be those two things, he can do pretty much anything else on the basketball court.

Love is a guy that gets better the more you go to him in a game. He wears down opponents and frustrates them, gets them in foul trouble.

Given how tired LeBron has looked at times this season and with Kyrie in a shooting slump, I hope we start to use Love more on offense. He is a great passer and will find the open man and pass willingly. Forget this "fast first quarter start, then no more Love" stuff. Milk the guy; he's best when used as a workhorse. We will be better if we do that, and it will make things easier for LeBron. At least until we add a few more pieces to the roster.

 

[scopedog]

Well we kind of agree on a lot of the important things. I can clearly see the guy is a beast on offense and I love that.

The big question here is, can and will the Cavs front office find a center to come here and cover up that weakness. Because until that happens we're probably not going anywhere, short of a miracle.

This is not a team particularly known for good scouting, and historically speaking it seems teams don't generally like to trade with us when LBJ is in town and free agents don't normally like to come to Cleveland. Not to mention we don't get any gifts in the way of picks once he is here. Hopefully with these different circumstances we have it will all work out though. You just have to be competent to succeed in this situation.

I guess this is the problem for me, I don't trust the Cavs front office because they couldn't pull it off the first time LBJ played for us. And that has nothing to do with Love, so I'll try to lay off him a bit.

 

[CavsFan005]

I think what needs to happen to Love is he needs to get embarrassed in a playoff series, then he can look in the mirror and say I can do better.

The same things were said about Gasol when he got traded to the lakers in 08. KG did work on him during the finals and then the next 2 years he came back and was imo the best big man in the game for those Laker championships.

 

[Cavatt]

Comparing Boozer and Love is the smartest thing I have seen in this thread.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Chris Bosh is the best pick-and-roll defending big in the NBA...that can't be overlooked during the comparison

 

[Pioneer10]

Comparing Boozer and Love is the smartest thing I have seen in this thread.

Love is a lot like Boozer plus 3 point shooting and passing. Boozer with 3 point shooting and passing is a very valuable player. (Dirk is also a reasonable comparison although in terms of body type the Love/Boozer analogy works better)

Love is not the problem, the trouble with the Cavs is that we don't have a Chandler to match up next to Love. Dirk was an MVP but that team kept losing till they got a guy who covered his weaknesses.

 

[LeShaq]

Chris Bosh is the best pick-and-roll defending big in the NBA...that can't be overlooked during the comparison

Fair.

The problem with Bosh is he's way too soft. He just does not like to bang in the paint any longer. Love is the opposite of that. He might not be a great defender, but he likes to be in the paint and will fight for rebounds.

Win shares per 48 minutes and VORP (value over replacement player) both have defensive aspects in them. Here's the best of those stats for Love and Bosh, including Bosh in Toronto.

Bosh top win shares per 48 minutes seasons
.200
.182
.177

Bosh top VORP seasons (higher number better)
+3.3
+3.0
+2.9

Love top win shares per 48 minutes seasons
.245
.223
.210

Love top VORP seasons
+7.0
+4.1
+3.5

Love is simply a better player than Bosh ever could be, all factors considered. He's also much better than nearly all the other big men in the league as well.

Suffice it to say, Love is also better than any version of Carlos Boozer.

 

[LeShaq]

Something else I forgot. I mentioned above that I thought LeBron was taller than Love. Windhorst said on his radio show today that he also believes LeBron is taller than Love, or that they are nearly the same size.

Now as great of an athlete as LeBron is, imagine him trying to guard the rim or the paint. It would never work even for a game. The next time someone rips Love for not being a rim protector or great paint defender, just remember he's about the same height as LeBron.

 

[crabbyshark]

Judging Love's defense based so heavily on the last game is a little silly considering he was playing through the same flu that put Dion and Delly in the hospital.

 

[Dylan Windler's Mom]

That was a horrible shooting night for Love tonight. I hope he gets it together quickly for Memphis because that's going to be a tough one.

 

[Kevin Ollie]

I was really happy that Love bothered to contests some shots tonight. It was getting discouraging that you could count the number of times he jumped on defense on one hand every night.
I can stomach him being a bad defender if the effort is there, but on most nights he'd be content to watch guys take jumpers and turn around hoping they'd miss, watch guys take layups and box out hoping they'd miss. That kind of play is ridiculous. He's going to have to sacrifice some rebounds, commit some fouls, and give great effort.

 

[cavsfever]

Of course we need better post defense. I think Love is shorter than LeBron is. Imagine if LeBron were trying to protect the rim. How do you think he would be viewed?

Yeah, what's up with his height? He is listed at 6'10 but he looks maybe 6'8 out there. 6'8 and can't jump. He is strong but he actually looks small for a PF, like a much less athletic Charles Barkley.