Kevin Love - Miami Ground Machine

[mhi]

I'll say this Irving needs to be a more willing passer, esp to Love when he's spotted up. I can prob produce a 4min roll of Irving looking off an open Love in order to take a tough long 2 . Granted, Irving seems to convert more of these than he misses, the better basketball play is a pass to the open man. JR Smith has been a more willing passer for god's sake.

 

[Cavatt]

It was said, we need this guy for the playoffs. I am worried about his stamina. How us he going to play late in June, when he is tired and ineffective on every back to back? I know you don't play them in the playoffs, but it is a grueling schedule nonetheless. He fades by the quarter let alone a 7 game series.

Kevin Love has done me wrong, if you will, by wilting when we really need him. Any time we need a big bucket, it wasn't him. Any time we need a rebound, its Thompson or Delly! He's been terrible in the clutch and I get visions of Mo Williams missing wide open 3 after wide open 3 against Orlando.

 

[gourimoko]

Now Love please go out there and perform to the point of shutting this thread up for a day or two (which historically means he plays well, cuz it *does* seem to be true that this thread is quieter when he has a good game).

It'd be great if Love had more good games than bad ones.

I'm personally looking for him to bounce back tonight.

 

[theSTEREO.]

The bolded is really the entire point isn't it?

I mean, 17/10 is good but when you consider that this is at 43% from the field for a PF, then it becomes harder to hide behind.

@gourimoko, I am on my way out the door so I can respond more in full later but here's the gist.

No. You absolutely do not need to handle him with kid gloves. Also, I have said repeatedly that I don't feel he is playing up to his potential. Not anywhere close to it for most of the year, although he is a lot closer over the last month than he was before that.

The two things I take issue with are the dismissal of him as a superstar type player, and the comparison to Wiggins.

As for the Wiggins comparison, I have no interest in beating a dead horse. I've gone over it a million times. But the long and short of it is Wiggins has free reign to shoot and is their number one option on offense, while Love is a cog in a wheel and is learning to be that. Just like Bosh had to learn. And what if the roles were reversed? I am very confident that Wiggins would be struggling just as hard as Love here, probably worse. And Love would be putting up his superstar numbers in MIN.

And as for the dismissal of his superstar ability, there is a HUGE difference between Waiters, Thompson, Kyrie and the others you mentioned. Body of Work. Kevin has it, they don't. Again in the interest of time, we have multiple seasons of proof of what Kevin can do. Not those other guys, save Kyrie now.

Also, you take issue with his 43% FG. His career is 44%. His career best was 47%. Also, he's shooting better from 3pt range than he is from the floor in general over the last month. There is room for improvement there yes, but he's been dominant for years at similar shooting numbers for what that's worth.

 

[Cavatt]

@gourimoko, I am on my way out the door so I can respond more in full later but here's the gist.

No. You absolutely do not need to handle him with kid gloves. Also, I have said repeatedly that I don't feel he is playing up to his potential. Not anywhere close to it for most of the year, although he is a lot closer over the last month than he was before that.

The two things I take issue with are the dismissal of him as a superstar type player, and the comparison to Wiggins.

As for the Wiggins comparison, I have no interest in beating a dead horse. I've gone over it a million times. But the long and short of it is Wiggins has free reign to shoot and is their number one option on offense, while Love is a cog in a wheel and is learning to be that. Just like Bosh had to learn. And what if the roles were reversed? I am very confident that Wiggins would be struggling just as hard as Love here, probably worse. And Love would be putting up his superstar numbers in MIN.

And as for the dismissal of his superstar ability, there is a HUGE difference between Waiters, Thompson, Kyrie and the others you mentioned. Body of Work. Kevin has it, they don't. Again in the interest of time, we have multiple seasons of proof of what Kevin can do. Not those other guys, save Kyrie now.

Also, you take issue with his 43% FG. His career is 44%. His career best was 47%. Also, he's shooting better from 3pt range than he is from the floor in general over the last month. There is room for improvement there yes, but he's been dominant for years at similar shooting numbers for what that's worth.

Yeah, but your argument can be turned right around on you. "Wiggins can't be a superstar in our system, only on a bad team like Minny", " Kevin Love has a body of work" yes he does on a bad team, as the number one option, that has never had any success.

He is getting better wide open shots here.
No evidence whatsoever that Wiggins can't play on a contender, not a single minute.(defense translates tho)

Over half a season of evidence that Kevin Love struggles when the game is on the line.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

The bolded is really the entire point isn't it?

I mean, 17/10 is good but when you consider that this is at 43% from the field for a PF, then it becomes harder to hide behind.

You're using field goal percentage? 43% is below the norm for him, but not bad at all considering the shots he takes. Ideally he'd be at 45% or above, but his true shooting percentage is still up there around and even above some really good PFs due to the fact he shoots a lot of threes and gets to the line and converts at a good clip for a PF. It's hard to accept that, when we've all grown up looking at FG%, but not all shots are created equal. The three is a more efficient shot. You can shoot 35% from three and be more efficient than a guy shooting 50% on twos.

All that said, he has been a bit disappointing. His biggest issue are the back-to-backs, so I am hopeful he will be more consistent in the playoffs. On the plus side he seems to be trending upwards and has become a different, more committed defender over the last month and a half, which shouldn't be overlooked and is key to our playoff chances. Whatever way you look at his value, he is someone we can't easily replace and need for the long term.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

That's another good point on why I'm worried about how K Love will perform in the playoffs. I don't think I can recall a single time this season when he has made a clutch basket, or pulled down a board when we needed it, or found the open man with less than a couple minutes left, or gotten a clutch stop on the defensive end...he disappears often. Delly, TT, Kyrie, Lebron, Mozgov, and JR have all made plays like this when we needed them late in the game however.

Those of you complaining about the Love complainers don't realize that we're not just waiting for Love to have a bad game so we can go off on him. The fact is that he's disappointed in games more than we would expect from a guy who used to be a superstar. We're all Cavs fans here and I know I'd like nothing more than for Love to shut me up by pulling together a good string of games. You can understand why we'd be upset when Lebron and Kyrie are out and we really need the superstar Kevkn Love to make an appearance, and then he throws up a 17/10 game (which looks good on the surface but then you realize Delly also had 10 boards and 17 points wasn't all that much with LBJ and Ky out), along with 6/19 shooting and bad defense/shooting/rebounding in the last few minutes, right?

Hell, here's hoping Love has a fantastic game tonight. I want him to, because I want the Cavs to win.

 

[gourimoko]

@gourimoko, I am on my way out the door so I can respond more in full later but here's the gist.

No. You absolutely do not need to handle him with kid gloves. Also, I have said repeatedly that I don't feel he is playing up to his potential. Not anywhere close to it for most of the year, although he is a lot closer over the last month than he was before that.

Agreed.

The two things I take issue with are the dismissal of him as a superstar type player,

Is this without basis? I mean, Chris Webber made this exact same point about Kevin Love. He's not playing like a superstar this year. Comparing him to guys who are right below that superstar-level, it's hard to make the case.

Is he better than Jimmy Butler, Serge Ibaka, or Klay Thompson? I'm not saying he is or isn't, but the difference between these guys, this season, isn't that high.

and the comparison to Wiggins.

Love will always be compared to Wiggins, for the rest of his career. It isn't just on this board.

As for the Wiggins comparison, I have no interest in beating a dead horse. I've gone over it a million times. But the long and short of it is Wiggins has free reign to shoot and is their number one option on offense, while Love is a cog in a wheel and is learning to be that. Just like Bosh had to learn. And what if the roles were reversed? I am very confident that Wiggins would be struggling just as hard as Love here, probably worse. And Love would be putting up his superstar numbers in MIN.

I highly doubt the bolded is true. I see no basis for it at all. I think Wiggins would have thrived here alongside Irving and LeBron.

I think, rather than saying "Wiggins wouldn't have thrived here," let's look at what he is doing where he's at.

Yes Love put up superstar numbers last year. And this year, he's not. But it's more complex than just saying, well, he's adjusting and getting fewer shots, I think.

My personal concern was that he's been playing with a bad back, perhaps for months. But I have no idea if that's the case or not.

And as for the dismissal of his superstar ability, there is a HUGE difference between Waiters, Thompson, Kyrie and the others you mentioned. Body of Work. Kevin has it, they don't.

Wait what?

Kevin has nothing that Kyrie doesn't. In his "body of work" he never went to the playoffs; not once. I'd take Kyrie Irving over Kevin Love any day of the week.

Kyrie is thriving in our new system and proving to be the future of the franchise. While Love is being called a "specialist" by some really great former players whose opinions are widely respected.

Again in the interest of time, we have multiple seasons of proof of what Kevin can do. Not those other guys, save Kyrie now.

So that means they are open to criticism?

This seems so backwards to me. Why criticize the developing guy on his rookie deal and not the guy aiming to get a max contract? Why criticize the rookie you drafted before the guy with the supposed "body of work?"

Personally, I think everyone should be open to criticism, especially guys who you're thinking of signing to a max contract.

If Kevin Love does opt-in and is still playing next season as he is, it wouldn't be wise not to reevaluate the situation (from both sides).

Also, you take issue with his 43% FG. His career is 44%.

His career is 45%, not 44%.

His career best was 47%. Also, he's shooting better from 3pt range than he is from the floor in general over the last month.

I'm more concerned with discussing his performance over the season, not just the last month. But in general, his numbers across the board are down from last year (per/36, per/100p); and that's fairly concerning.

I do think he needs more touches, and better looks.

There is room for improvement there yes, but he's been dominant for years at similar shooting numbers for what that's worth.

Kevin Love has had 3 exceptional years out of 7. He's always been a great rebounder. I think he's a great basketball player, in general. Although with that said, I don't think it's fair to discount this season in favor of past ones.

 

[PedroFlu]

IMO Love has been underwhelming this season when you expect All Star level play.

Also I'm sure he's opting in for 1 more year. It's money. So this year isn't deciding anything. Next season will be decisive in terms of Love wanting to remain with the Cavs. So far it really looks he's remaining.

The Cavs don't have much option but to give him the max. If they don't, they'll remain near the cap and he will have to be replaced for a 10M/year guy who could do the job but with low chances of all star upside.

Love is very capable of doing the job and may show his all star self sometimes.

So all in all, I believe he's staying for the max and he should improve next season, due to health and adjusting.

 

[Hydroponic3385]

Then comment on his good performances, too? And yes, there's been plenty. Just not as many of the huge statistical type of games you may have expected. But he's been playing very well all around the past couple months. He was the leader in point differential on/off the floor during that span, has improved his shot overall, is fitting in very well with our revamped D, has been hustling a lot and playing harder.

The Love supporters or neutral people in this conversation also acknowledge Love's negative traits. But when people react with essentially "this guy sucks, we never should've traded for him, Wiggins is a superstar", it gets old.

 

[Helium filament]

That's another good point on why I'm worried about how K Love will perform in the playoffs. I don't think I can recall a single time this season when he has made a clutch basket, or pulled down a board when we needed it, or found the open man with less than a couple minutes left, or gotten a clutch stop on the defensive end...he disappears often. Delly, TT, Kyrie, Lebron, Mozgov, and JR have all made plays like this when we needed them late in the game however.

Kevin did have a huge play at the end of the Charlotte game which was one of the few wins with LeBron out (recap here in case you forgot:http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2015/01/cleveland_cavaliers_charlotte_2.html). I agree that this doesn't happen often enough, but that isn't necessarily all on Kevin. We don't know the plays that are being drawn up. We all agree Kevin doesn't get enough touches in the fourth quarter and I'd like to see more plays like this one because I do think he is a clutch player. I also completely disagree with you on your assessment that he isn't finding open looks for others. He is a very willing and smart passer. He should be touching the ball every possession for that reason, but it just isn't happening. I think that's partly because Kevin is not aggressive enough but also because he isn't being utilized correctly.

 

[gourimoko]

You're using field goal percentage? 43% is below the norm for him, but not bad at all considering the shots he takes.

I get what you're saying but it's still a substantial drop-off from where we'd like him to be.

Ideally he'd be at 45% or above, but his true shooting percentage is still up there around and even above some really good PFs due to the fact he shoots a lot of threes and gets to the line and converts at a good clip for a PF.

Agreed, his TS% is slightly above average for his position (.557 vs .531 avg). But his TS% is way down from last season (.591) and that's more my point.

It's hard to accept that, when we've all grown up looking at FG%, but not all shots are created equal.

Bob, trust me, lol... I'm familiar with advanced stats. If anything, Love's advanced stats show how much he's struggled this season.

All that said, he has been a bit disappointing.

That's my only point.

Whatever way you look at his value, he is someone we can't easily replace and need for the long term.

Agreed.

 

[gourimoko]

Then comment on his good performances, too? And yes, there's been plenty.

I can go back in this thread and find at least 20 instances of me complimenting Kevin Love.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

Kevin did have a huge play at the end of the Charlotte game which was one of the few wins with LeBron out (recap here in case you forgot:http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2015/01/cleveland_cavaliers_charlotte_2.html). I agree that this doesn't happen often enough, but that isn't necessarily all on Kevin. We don't know the plays that are being drawn up. We all agree Kevin doesn't get enough touches in the fourth quarter and I'd like to see more plays like this one because I do think he is a clutch player. I also completely disagree with you on your assessment that he isn't finding open looks for others. He is a very willing and smart passer. He should be touching the ball every possession for that reason, but it just isn't happening. I think that's partly because Kevin is not aggressive enough but also because he isn't being utilized correctly.

I'm not saying he can't find guys because I know he is a capable passer. Just saying he hasn't in crunch time situations. And I just think he'll get more touches late in the game when he's proven that he can "make something happen" per say. No point in giving him touches just for the sake of getting Love "his." We're trying to win games here and we've given him chances. Just because we're going to Kyrie and Lebron more in late situations doesn't mean they're not looking for him. It's just that Kyrie and Lebron have proven to be more effective options in crunch time. Plus, there's also the issue of failing to pull down late game boards and get defensive stops, which the alleged lack of touches wouldn't affect.

 

[gourimoko]

Btw..

The Love supporters or neutral people in this conversation also acknowledge Love's negative traits. But when people react with essentially "this guy sucks, we never should've traded for him, Wiggins is a superstar", it gets old.

I don't think there are any people in this thread actively rooting against Kevin Love. And I don't want to divide the thread up into camps.

I consider myself a "Love supporter." I like Kevin Love and I'm glad he's a Cavalier. I just want him to perform to expectations.