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Kyrie Irving

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I just think you have a very old-school, traditional mindset when it comes to basketball. We are in an NBA era now where the PG is usually one of the team's top three most talented scorers, and the role has evolved to reflect that. In today's NBA there isn't just one initiator running the show, that responsibility is usually shared among multiple players.

To some extent. I've always wondered how good James would be if he actually played with a real PG for once in his career, but I've got no problem looking at things pragmatically. When James runs a team, that team wins a lot of games.

It would be one thing if the issues you're criticizing Kyrie with were actually affecting the team's current performance..but it's not. On a team with LeBron James on it, "leadership and playmaking" from the other positions become less important than other skills.

I agree, but when comparing players we try to somehow subtract the quality of teammates from the player in question. Never easy to do, but it's always part of the exercise. For the Cavs, there's the little matter of how will we do if James has to miss some games? Is there any reason to believe that the ball movement would still be crisp and the scoring spread around? Or will we be hoping that Kyrie can explode for another 50pt game?
 
hahahaha, what?!?!? Isaiah Thomas = Kyrie Irving. This is how I know we are not being serious right now.

Isiaih .vs. Kyrie has been an interesting debate since Kyrie's rookie season that was especially fueled by the fact Kyrie was the first pick and Thomas the last pick in the draft.

Here's an example:

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/9/17/4742580/isaiah-thomas-kyrie-irving-nba-video

As far as superstars go, I can't see putting a quota on the number. In my book, we're talking a generational player who would make any team significantly better on both sides of the floor.
 
It's like Grantland wrote it with a tab open to this thread...

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/nba-shootaround-opening-prayer/

"All the winning the Cavs have done in 2015 has changed the way we see Irving. He’s not a point guard who doesn’t pass enough, he’s a Wade Guard who needs the ball in his hands to get going. If he’s going to pour on 30 points in his first playoff game, and the Cavs are going to click the way they were clicking Sunday, who needs a point guard?"
 
Isiaih .vs. Kyrie has been an interesting debate since Kyrie's rookie season that was especially fueled by the fact Kyrie was the first pick and Thomas the last pick in the draft.

Here's an example:

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/9/17/4742580/isaiah-thomas-kyrie-irving-nba-video

As far as superstars go, I can't see putting a quota on the number. In my book, we're talking a generational player who would make any team significantly better on both sides of the floor.
lol, okay man.
 
most nba PG's are shooting guards now, who said a PG gotta average 10 assists? kyrie is an unstoppable scoring machine and points are points who cares who gets them, as long as its efficient and helps the team win I couldn't care less, the old "pass only" pg's is almost dead.
 
What is the actual debate here?

LeBron is our top playmaker and PG. Kyrie is a combo guard.

But none of these categories fit in the modern NBA, anyways. Is LeBron a small forward or a power forward? Do we judge this based on his size or how he plays?

Kyrie is clearly a combo guard, if not just a short shooting guard with ridiculous handles. But since he's short, and brings the ball up the court, we call him a PG.

Who fucking cares whether or not we all share the same definition of "superstar"? If you want to have this debate, then you should all make sure you agree on the same definition first. Otherwise, it's just a stupid Jon-style conversation where he never defines his terms.
 
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most nba PG's are shooting guards now, who said a PG gotta average 10 assists? kyrie is an unstoppable scoring machine and points are points who cares who gets them, as long as its efficient and helps the team win I couldn't care less, the old "pass only" pg's is almost dead.
Wait, we are talking about the modern NBA?!? Fucking news to me. I was thinking we were talking about Isaiah Thomas of the Bad Boy Pistons.
 
This has nothing to do with traditional roles.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the specific point you made to which I was responding, which was:

It's a syndrome to judge a PG on his leadership skills, playmaking, and his ability to make the guys around him better? If teams don't get this from somewhere, they're going to lose a ton of games.

The point is that Cavs clearly can get that from somewhere other than Kyrie; namely, LBJ. The concerns you raise about Kyrie's supposed lack of PG skills, and the chance of losing "a ton of games" because of that, might be a lot more valid on a team that didn't have LBJ. But, we do.

And that's why I mentioned MJ and Pippen, but you can also stick Kobe in there. MJ, Kobe, and LBJ all won multiple championships without having a "traditional PG" as the primary ballhandler/playmaker. Let's review the numbers.

In Jordan's six championship season, the "point guard" averaged 3.7, 3.2, 4.8, 2.6, 2.5, and 2.9 assists per game.

In Kobe's five championship seasons, the "PG" had 5.8, 4.4, 2.6, 3.2, and 2.5 a/g

And in LBJ's two championship seasons, the "PG" had 3.5 and 3.5 a/g.

This year, Kyrie averaged 5.2 a/g, which is more than the "PG" averaged in 12 out of the 13 seasons in which those guys won championships.

Kyrie not meeting your definition of a PG is not going to be what keeps the Cavs from a title.

What that means is that the debate about whether or not Kyrie is a point guard amounts to nothing more than an argument about labels, not about what it takes to win basketball games and a championship.
 
I just think you have a very old-school, traditional mindset when it comes to basketball.

The thing is even that is overstating the issue. Jordan was winning championships 20 years ago without a traditional point guard.

That being said, I don't agree with Jon's premise that Kyrie lacks the skills to be a traditional point guard. The role of the PG is to facilitate the distribution of the ball so as to get the best shot possible for the offense. The "problem" with Kyrie filling that role is that his ball-handling and finishing skills are so exceptional that in situations where the smartest basketball play for most PG's is to penetrate and dish, the smartest basketball play for Kyrie is to keep the ball and finish himself. It's a less traditional look, but it also is completely consistent with the PG's duty to get the offense the best shot possible.

What keeps his game from looking more like Mark Price's isn't that he can't do what Price did, but that Price couldn't do what Kyrie can.
 
The thing is even that is overstating the issue. Jordan was winning championships 20 years ago without a traditional point guard.

That being said, I don't agree with Jon's premise that Kyrie lacks the skills to be a traditional point guard. The role of the PG is to facilitate the distribution of the ball so as to get the best shot possible for the offense. The "problem" with Kyrie filling that role is that his ball-handling and finishing skills are so exceptional that in situations where the smartest basketball play for most PG's is to penetrate and dish, the smartest basketball play for Kyrie is to keep the ball and finish himself. It's a less traditional look, but it also is completely consistent with the PG's duty to get the offense the best shot possible.

What keeps his game from looking more like Mark Price's isn't that he can't do what Price did, but that Price couldn't do what Kyrie can.

As much as I might not want to.. I had to like this post...

This is spot-on.
 
Personally, I disagree that Kyrie lacks the skills to be a legitimate point guard. He has demonstrated some pretty amazing passing ability during his time here, and I think his vision is pretty great too. However, he tends to get tunnel vision and focus on creating for himself rather than others, probably because scoring comes so easy to him.

As a scorer, he reminds me of Kobe, another guy with great vision and passing ability who didn't use it quite as often as he probably should have. That's not to say Kyrie is as good as Kobe or anything, but I think they have similar mentalities.
 
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