LeBron James

[Damien O'Connel]

You are really young.

I don't take that as an insult. In terms of the significance of the play, sure, Jordan's shot in '98 was more important. But I don't think Jordan could physically make that block. And it WAS a game saving play.

Not ridiculous at all to say it is a more impressive play than any Jordan ever made.

And Oi, I'm willing to bet that I've watched the same number of Jordan games as you. I used to wake up at 5, 6, 7 AM in the summers just to watch re runs on NBATV.

Jordan was incredible. But Lebron does more things better than Jordan than the other way around.

But I get it, you're older. You MUST know better

Also, Jordan never played against a zone defense. And if you think that the best defenders today don't hand check, well, lol at that.

 

[The Oi]

I don't take that as an insult. In terms of the significance of the play, sure, Jordan's shot in '98 was more important. But I don't think Jordan could physically make that block. And it WAS a game saving play.

Not ridiculous at all to say it is a more impressive play than any Jordan ever made.

And Oi, I'm willing to bet that I've watched the same number of Jordan games as you. I used to wake up at 5, 6, 7 AM in the summers just to watch re runs on NBATV.

Jordan was incredible. But Lebron does more things better than Jordan than the other way around.

But I get it, you're older. You MUST know better

Also, Jordan never played against a zone defense. And if you think that the best defenders today don't hand check, well, lol at that.

If we're just talking athletically, that block was pretty damn good.

I was under the impression you were talking about all NBA plays in history under all circumstances.

Because Blake Griffin makes more impressive plays than that about twice a year.

And many players have made bigger plays, under more high pressure circumstances than that throughout history.

Just off the top of my head...Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, Ray Allen are all non-Jordan players who have made bigger plays than that. LeBron did just one game before...

 

[All4One1ForAll]

I mean that chase down block would be an all-time career number 1 play for ANYONE else. Including Jordan.

Wait...are you saying it's the best play in NBA history? Don't get me wrong, the block was amazing...but it might not even be one of LeBron's top 5 plays of all time.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Ok criteria I'm going with: How impressive the play is athletically + significance of the moment.

It'd be hard to find a better one. People still talk about Prince's chase down and it was 1/2 the block that was.

I mean, who else would that block even be possible for?

 

[The Oi]

Ok criteria I'm going with: How impressive the play is athletically + significance of the moment.

It'd be hard to find a better one. People still talk about Prince's chase down and it was 1/2 the block that was.

I mean, who else would that block even be possible for?

Interesting criteria.

In that case, yeah it's up there.

Most huge plays in NBA history have been jumpshots off the dribble, jumpshots off of a pass or steals and scores. None of those things take a hell of a lot of athleticism.

The most athletic plays in basketball are generally dunks and blocks, neither of which are common in big moment situations.

You're probably on to something with those criteria, you youthful little bastard.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Interesting criteria.

In that case, yeah it's up there.

Most huge plays in NBA history have been jumpshots off the dribble, jumpshots off of a pass or steals and scores. None of those things take a hell of a lot of athleticism.

The most athletic plays in basketball are generally dunks and blocks, neither of which are common in big moment situations.

You're probably on to something with those criteria, you youthful little bastard.

My overall point is, yeah, people are saying it was a great play.

But imagine if Kobe did that (which he couldn't...just physically couldn't), we would never hear the end of it and it would be shown on his career highlights forever.

In a week, we won't be talking about this anymore.

It was just a superhuman play, in a critical moment. Amazing to have that kind of bail out plan.

 

[The Oi]

In a week, we won't be talking about this anymore.

Chicks dig the long ball.

 

[enigmatic]

It really was a completely different game back then, The ABA in it's prime w/ Doctor J, George McGinnis, Billy Cunningham the year he played for Carolina, Danny Issel etc really was the forerunner of what you see today IMO. Wing players taking over a game. Yeah, the ABA had the A-Train, but their Centers were mostly guys like Mel Daniels, who would barely be a wing today even those he was a beast in the paint.

Youtube has some old ABA games and all-star games and it's always a blast to watch them. Legit History.

I think I posted this article before, but it's worth posting again. This article breaks down how getting rid of illegal defense rules has transformed the game and made defenses MUCH tougher to score against. Bottom line, this is the greatest era of basketball ever.

http://therdsports.com/2013/06/19/the-mythic-1990s/

Go back and watch some full games from earlier eras. Defenses are a lot worse. The inability to load up against a star playing iso ball just was not there -- it wasn't allowed. And getting rid of hand checking doesn't make up for it, not even close. Anyone who thinks that hand checking could have stopped Lebron is dreaming.

Side note -- I saw a video of Oscar Robertson playing against Bill Russell in one of the NBA League Pass classics. Robertson looked like a guy who would have had a hard time making an all-star game today. (Although he clearly could have played in the modern league, which you couldn't say about a lot of guys on the court with him). Russell on the other hand looked like a defensive superstar in any era.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

One thing that fascinates me about James is his intelligence/recall.

He was asked about that block at the presser, and you could almost see him visualizing the exact play all over again. Like someone just hit the "rewind" button. And when he answered, it was like he was describing what he was actually seeing at that moment rather than simply remembering the play. He specifically described Delly defending the play very well, keeping his body between Rose and the basket, which enabled LBJ to get the right angle.

I'm too young to have seen Russell, but I can't recall another superstar who radiated that level of sheer brainpower.

People used to talk about Bird's anticipation and court-vision. Like he saw everything in front of him and knew what was going to happen. I wouldn't interested to know if other people remember the same. People used to talk about Gretzky in the same way - that he could see through time.

 

[enigmatic]

Thing that made Gretzky so great is he saw the game 3 plays before everyone else did. He was such a slight dude even back then but his ice vision was amazing.

People used to talk about Bird's anticipation and court-vision. Like he saw everything in front of him and knew what was going to happen. I wouldn't interested to know if other people remember the same. People used to talk about Gretzky in the same way - that he could see through time.

 

[KilgoreTrout]

LeBron was awesome, but look how lost he gets on this Butler 3 that cuts it to 5. http://on.nba.com/1HdB8d8

Also gets a tad lost on the one that cuts it to 2, although that was more of an unwillingness to stick a hand up and contest. http://on.nba.com/1H2z1WS

Nonetheless, spectacular game from him.

I get nervous all over again when I see that. I suspend the disbelief. It's like watching a WW2 movie, forgetting how it ends. It's unsettling.

 

[Zog]

LeBron was awesome, but look how lost he gets on this Butler 3 that cuts it to 5. http://on.nba.com/1HdB8d8

Also gets a tad lost on the one that cuts it to 2, although that was more of an unwillingness to stick a hand up and contest. http://on.nba.com/1H2z1WS

Nonetheless, spectacular game from him.

The one that cut it to 3 was 100% on Kyrie. That was like the third time he allowed someone to back door him in the game. If he doesn't let Hinrich back door him, Butler never gets the ball that wide open.

The one where it is cut to 2, he does get caught in between, but at the end of the day if he would have had a hand up as you said, it would have looked like a much better contest.

I'm not sure how many people noticed this play during the game, but on the subject of closeouts, take a look at the amount of distance LeBron covers in the first 15 seconds of this video: http://on.nba.com/1HdC1ST

- chases Rose down the lane to prevent the layup
- sprints from out of bounds behind the baseline out to the three point line to prevent Butler from shooting a three
- closes out on Rose all while also making it look like the pass to Butler is not open

 

[spydy13]

Chicks dig the long balls.

Corrected.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I think I posted this article before, but it's worth posting again. This article breaks down how getting rid of illegal defense rules has transformed the game and made defenses MUCH tougher to score against.

Bottom line, this is the greatest era of basketball ever.

http://therdsports.com/2013/06/19/the-mythic-1990s/

Interesting article. The first thing I was looking for was a definition of "greatest era of basketball", because it seems kind of odd to argue which era was "greatest" if you can't even agree on what the standard is.

Anyway, he avoids that (seemingly to me, anyway) important question by simply saying that tougher defenses (due to rule changes) = greatest era of basketball. That certainly isn't something that is self evident, but he really didn't try to prove it. It's like the author just decided on his own that tougher defenses = greatest era, and just went from there. Kind of odd, really.

I read it quickly so perhaps I missed it, but the one "myth" I didn't see him address was the "myth" that the decline of two, three and four year college players has reduced the quality of basketball. You've got a lot of younger, less mature guys coming into the league now who really have to survive to a much greater extent on pure athleticism, and less actual basketball ability. That obviously affects the quality of ball. The most direct consequence of that is that big men specifically don't come into the league with post skills, but it obviously affects play in other ways as well.

Anyway, the point is that "the greatest era of basketball" clearly has a subjective component, and if you're someone who misses the day when most college players came out a bit older, and a bit more mature, with a higher skill level, and the game had a real post element to it, then you're probably not going to prefer the game as it is now.

I'd also say that if we're talking "basketball", and not just NBA basketball, that the advent of one and done, etc., has reduced the quality of college basketball as well.

 

[NaySmith]

About great achievements, I consider LeBron's greatest achievement that he took that 2007 team to the Finals. Sure we were swept by SAS, but really, that Cavs team? Any other player capable of doing that?

Hell, the closest MJ came to that was taking Lola Bunny to a W over the Toon Stars.