Matthew Dellavedova

[Jack Brickman]

Delly had the 14th most popular jersey from April to June!

 

[NasstyNate]

I guess I'm kind of confused as to what you think we need as a backup PG. You say we don't need a "traditional" PG, but rather one who can play defense and hit threes. And you acknowledge that Delly was "decent" at that.

You then go on to point out all the ways that Delly is not a traditional PG, but based on your first point, I can't see why that would matter to you anyway. You then point to the Finals, and essentially criticize Delly for not being able to play the role of a traditional PG in terms of creating offense. Although I disagree about his performance in the Finals -- I think the reason Delly's lobs missed were because our lack of reliable outside shooting by JR/Shump/LBJ, etc.. clogged the middle. Delly failed running our offense in the Finals because there weren't the pieces to run an offense, and he was forced to try to make something out of nothing. But anyway....

You then go on to say that Delly is an end of the bench guy. But if you're looking to b/u KI with a 3 and D guy....why isn't that Delly?

What's confusing is that you're saying we need a 3 and D guy rather than a traditional point guard, but you seem to be criticizing Delly's performance in the Finals because he wasn't able to do the things a "traditional PG" can do.

So who is a non-traditional, 3 and D backup PG you think would have done better for us in the Finals?

I thought my post was clear. We do not need a traditional PG to back up Kyrie. I then showed that, despite what people in this thread are claiming, Delly is not a good traditional PG as evidenced by this season and playoffs. What Delly is, is a decent 3 and D guy. And players like him are usually end of the bench guys. If he improves his contested 3 point shooting, including release time, then I think he has a role in the offense as currently constructed. If we move to a more decentralized offense, which I hope we do, then he does not have a role.

Delly is not the reason we lost. I'd still take GSW in 6 with a healthy Kyrie. To answer your question, Kent Bazemore would be the kind of player that I would like.

 

[Randolphkeys]

I thought my post was clear.

No, not at all. That's why the conversation continues.

We do not need a traditional PG to back up Kyrie. I then showed that, despite what people in this thread are claiming, Delly is not a good traditional PG as evidenced by this season and playoffs.

So if a guy who lives off initiating the pick and roll as a backup point guard SPECIFICALLY isn't needed, smack a period at the end of your sentence rather than creating a circular argument. The Cavaliers seem to think Delly is a part of a rotation, he was given a qualifying offer.

What Delly is, is a decent 3 and D guy.

Yes, at this point he has proven to be one of the best at it in the "under 6'5 category."

And players like him are usually end of the bench guys.

Fucking nonsense. If you really believe this, we can't help you here.

If he improves his contested 3 point shooting, including release time, then I think he has a role in the offense as currently constructed. If we move to a more decentralized offense, which I hope we do, then he does not have a role.

In a decentralized offense, you actually need MORE players who pass more than dribble, move without the ball to get catch and shoot opportunities, hit threes at nearly 40%, and can set picks from the guard position. He has a BIG role in the kind of offense Kerr installed in Golden State. You are mistaking the injuries to 3 starters, thus creating an offense that tailored Shump, Smith, and LeBron, for Delly's lack of dribble penetration. It's scapegoating. It's poor analysis.

Delly is not the reason we lost. I'd still take GSW in 6 with a healthy Kyrie. To answer your question, Kent Bazemore would be the kind of player that I would like.

I was mocked last year around this time for being a Bazemore supporter... you won't likely find a bigger one on RCF... but the body of evidence is right in front of you proving Delly has far more value than Bazemore. Rewatch the Atlanta series, one guy stepped up a little, the other guy stepped up a lot. There's no contest.

 

[Cavatt]

Was a backup ever so scouted as Delly was in the finals. Once he hurt them in game 3, they didn't stop hounding him. JR and Shump couldn't pick up the slack. I don't think there is a deficiency here whatsoever. I think a deeper and more talented team beat us. What Delly did was incredible.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I thought my post was clear. We do not need a traditional PG to back up Kyrie. I then showed that, despite what people in this thread are claiming, Delly is not a good traditional PG as evidenced by this season and playoffs. What Delly is, is a decent 3 and D guy.

Okay, I get it now. You were making two separate points. The first is that we don't need a traditional PG, and the second that Delly isn't one anyway.

I disagree with both of those to at least some extent. I think there are times when the Cavs don't need a traditional PG. In particular, when LBJ takes over those duties or decides to LeISO the ball.

However, I also think there are times when we do need at least some of those "traditional PG" skills, particularly if LBJ is no longer in the game. I think we need someone who knows how to initiate an offense, move people around, and act the floor general. I can recall plenty of occasions in which Delly came into games and the ball actually started moving around better. Even if he isn't elite at that skill, he still is fairly capable.

Where Delly falls down in the "traditional PG" skills is that he lacks the ability to break down a defense off the dribble. But if he's playing with other guys who can do that, he's able to take advantage of it. At least from my perspective.

And players like him are usually end of the bench guys. If he improves his contested 3 point shooting, including release time, then I think he has a role in the offense as currently constructed. If we move to a more decentralized offense, which I hope we do, then he does not have a role.

I think you're unfairly discounting his ability to run an offense, based on him being put into a relatively impossible situation in the Finals. He's not elite in that regard, but neither is he without talent/ability. And I also think his hustle, understanding of offensive sets and movements, and shooting actually makes him a better fit in a decentralized offense where he wouldn't be expected to break down a defense by himself.

To answer your question, Kent Bazemore would be the kind of player that I would like.

Really? Bazemore shot under 34% from 3 last year, is barely over 34% for his career, and his assist/TO ratio is barely above 1.0. I suspect Atlanta would do that deal straight-up in a heartbeat.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

In a decentralized offense, you actually need MORE players who pass more than dribble, move without the ball to get catch and shoot opportunities, hit threes at nearly 40%, and can set picks from the guard position. He has a BIG role in the kind of offense Kerr installed in Golden State.

This. Delly would be perfect in that kind of offense because he understands and executes spacing and movement better than anyone else on the team. He can hit the open shot, and generally isn't careless with the ball.

You are mistaking the injuries to 3 starters, thus creating an offense that tailored Shump, Smith, and LeBron, for Delly's lack of dribble penetration.

I'm....kind of at a loss right now. I've been watching Cavs basketball for over 40 years, and I feel like I must be going blind or something.

Delly is the kind of guy every single coach wants to have on his team because of what he does to the overall team chemistry and attitude. He's the guy who had to be taken to the freaking hospital after the win in game 3. He is loved by every single other player on that team, and not because he's just a good "locker room" guy, but because of what he does for his team on the floor.

 

[NasstyNate]

Yes, at this point he has proven to be one of the best at it in the "under 6'5 category."

Please show your work.

In a decentralized offense, you actually need MORE players who pass more than dribble, move without the ball to get catch and shoot opportunities, hit threes at nearly 40%, and can set picks from the guard position. He has a BIG role in the kind of offense Kerr installed in Golden State. You are mistaking the injuries to 3 starters, thus creating an offense that tailored Shump, Smith, and LeBron, for Delly's lack of dribble penetration. It's scapegoating. It's poor analysis.

First of all, calm your arrogant talking to me down. You misreading my post and inserting all kinds of made up thinking does not mean I have poor analysis. I attribute his lack of dribble penetration to his inability to penetrate with the dribble. The dude still dribbles with his head looking down at the ball because he is still terrified of it getting taken from him. Guards who are asked to facilitate in the NBA are able to take their man off the dribble no matter the offense. Full stop. Delly can't. He does provide other things on offense such as setting screens, but that hardly makes him a good player. And when has he ever moved without the ball?

Like Tristan, Delly's numbers come because of the talent around him. He shoots 40% because he is open a staggering amount of the time. He is open on 20% and wide open on 30.5% of his 3s. That's insane. Give most SG in the NBA an open shot 50% of the time and I bet you they shoot 40%.

I was mocked last year around this time for being a Bazemore supporter... you won't likely find a bigger one on RCF... but the body of evidence is right in front of you proving Delly has far more value than Bazemore. Rewatch the Atlanta series, one guy stepped up a little, the other guy stepped up a lot. There's no contest.

Good job.

The body of evidence suggests we are a better team with him off the court. It also shows what happens when teams scheme for him - he completely disappears.

 

[NasstyNate]

Okay, I get it now. You were making two separate points. The first is that we don't need a traditional PG, and the second that Delly isn't one anyway.

However, I also think there are times when we do need at least some of those "traditional PG" skills, particularly if LBJ is no longer in the game. I think we need someone who knows how to initiate an offense, move people around, and act the floor general. I can recall plenty of occasions in which Delly came into games and the ball actually started moving around better. Even if he isn't elite at that skill, he still is fairly capable.

Where Delly falls down in the "traditional PG" skills is that he lacks the ability to break down a defense off the dribble. But if he's playing with other guys who can do that, he's able to take advantage of it. At least from my perspective.

I agree with you on this.

I think you're unfairly discounting his ability to run an offense, based on him being put into a relatively impossible situation in the Finals. He's not elite in that regard, but neither is he without talent/ability. And I also think his hustle, understanding of offensive sets and movements, and shooting actually makes him a better fit in a decentralized offense where he wouldn't be expected to break down a defense by himself.

I am judging him based on all year and gave the most recent example. In addition to the link I just posted in my last post, 82games also shows him being a net negative. If reports are to be believed, the Cavs were trying like hell to replace him at the deadline. They saw what I see. I agree with your last sentence for what he provides to the team and I agree that coaches like him for it. I'd just rather have a better player than a coach's kid.

Really? Bazemore shot under 34% from 3 last year, is barely over 34% for his career, and his assist/TO ratio is barely above 1.0. I suspect Atlanta would do that deal straight-up in a heartbeat.

See my previous post about open shots. I wish they would.

 

[KIxJR1]

This dude is trash. Teams have caught on to those lobs but he throws them still when TT isn't even open. He has tunnel vision. I've never seen him penetrate and throw it out to an open shooter. Its always TT, if he's open or not. He's off more than he's on when it comes to making shots. He's just terrible on offense. Defense, he's okay but not as good as some of you make him out to be. We NEED a two way pg BAD. Disagree all you want.

 

[Randolphkeys]

Nate, you made some outrageous statements in that last post. If I came across as confrontational, apologies. I'm just amazed that you write off 3 and D players without a quick first step as "end of the bench" players. Well balanced rotations have them, especially if they can run half court sets on both ends of the floor. I think the Cavaliers will get another perimeter player within the next few weeks who can get dribble penetration. However, you have completely overvalued one part of guard play. It's to the point where I just feel like writing you off in the conversation, because the Cavaliers front office and coaches are of the correct view on this, regardless of your personal preference. In the end, they are the ones who matter.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I attribute his lack of dribble penetration to his inability to penetrate with the dribble.

I think we can all agree on that!

The dude still dribbles with his head looking down at the ball because he is still terrified of it getting taken from him. Guards who are asked to facilitate in the NBA are able to take their man off the dribble no matter the offense. Full stop. Delly can't.

You seem locked into this digital "either/or" view of being a PG. Either he can do everything you expect a point guard to do, at the level you want him to do it, or he's just not a point guard. A great many starters in this league are deficient at one or more of the skills you normally expect for someone playing that position. Personally, I don't see Delly's substandard ability to penetrate on the dribble as being any more of a disqualifier from him being considered a PG than is the inability to some PG's to guard their position. I actually think he shows a better understanding of ball movement and offensive flow (also characteristics of a PG) than does Kyrie. He probably excels at those abilities precisely because his lack of penetration forces him to compensate in other ways.

He does provide other things on offense such as setting screens, but that hardly makes him a good player. And when has he ever moved without the ball?

C'mon Nate, seriously? You've never seen Delly pass the ball, and then immediately run to another spot on the floor while pointing to other players and telling them how to move as well? I'm not "hunt for video clip guy", but I can't believe you didn't see that too.

The body of evidence suggests we are a better team with him off the court.

Virtually every team is better with a starter on the floor as opposed to a backup. But that's inherent to being a backup in the first place. Price FTW posted some stat earlier showing that Delly's advanced ratings are actually higher than the vast majority of players who are the 7th or 8th player on their team.

It also shows what happens when teams scheme for him - he completely disappears.

If your backup is so good that other teams are scheming for him rather than for someone else on the floor, I'd say he's a pretty good backup.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

am judging him based on all year and gave the most recent example. In addition to the link I just posted in my last post, 82games also shows him being a net negative.

82 games shows him being -4.8 on/off, -5.00 simple rating. Kind of like you'd expect from your 7th/8th guy. Who habitually played a lot of minutes with a bunch of bums.

82 games also shows Kent Bazemore as being -13.5 on/off, -8.8 simple rating.

 

[NasstyNate]

Nate, you made some outrageous statements in that last post. If I came across as confrontational, apologies. I'm just amazed that you write off 3 and D players without a quick first step as "end of the bench" players.

Thank you.

I did not say that 3 and D players without a first step are end of the bench players. I said players like Delly are. PGs that can't create off the dribble are end of the bench players. Do you disagree? Can you think of counterexamples?

However, you have completely overvalued one part of guard play.

What part exactly? I am always happy for people to point out my blind spots.

It's to the point where I just feel like writing you off in the conversation, because the Cavaliers front office and coaches are of the correct view on this, regardless of your personal preference. In the end, they are the ones who matter.

The same front office that tried to replace him a couple months ago?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Thank you.

I did not say that 3 and D players without a first step are end of the bench players. I said players like Delly are. PGs that can't create off the dribble are end of the bench players. Do you disagree? Can you think of counterexamples?

Livingston. He really doesn't have the ability to create off the dribble anymore.

One commonality between Livingston and Delly is that they are both capable of playing SG as well. But maybe if you're a smaller guy who is physically suited only to playing/guarding the PG, and you can't penetrate, then yes. You're more likely to be just an end of the bench guy.

 

[NasstyNate]

Livingston. He really doesn't have the ability to create off the dribble anymore.

One commonality between Livingston and Delly is that they are both capable of playing SG as well. But maybe if you're a smaller guy who is physically suited only to playing/guarding the PG, and you can't penetrate, then yes. You're more likely to be just an end of the bench guy.

Good thought. I'd say Livingston doesn't need the ability to create off the dribble because he just passes over guys. Shame about his knee injury.