Postseason "bittersweet" for Indians

[Ajak0410]

I'd say it's just bitter but on to the article...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/sabathia.lee/index.html

It's a 'bittersweet' postseason for Indians brass as CC and Lee shine


Jon Heyman

Cleveland came within one victory of reaching the 2007 World Series. That must seem like a long time ago to the Indians, who are currently rebuilding around youth and interviewing an extremely varied final four of managerial candidates (more on that later). Meanwhile, they can't help but notice the Indians' influence on the 2009 postseason. In one obvious way, this has been an Indian October.

Ex-Indians aces CC Sabathia (now a Yankee) and Cliff Lee (now a Phillie) are perhaps the two most important players and easily the best pitchers this postseason. They are also exactly the type of dominating starters that are vital to a team's October chances. Sabathia and Lee potentially could meet in Game 1 of the World Series, yet another reminder of what could have been for the small-market Tribe.

"Bittersweet," is the way Indians GM Mark Shapiro describes his emotions watching the ex-Indians thrive in the postseason.

Sabathia and Lee, the only two starters with multiple wins this postseason, have been absolutely dominant. Sabathia is 3-0 with a 1.19 ERA, Lee 2-0 with a 0.74 ERA. Both pitchers have 20 strikeouts and three walks in their three starts apiece. If the Yankees wrap things up in the ALCS on Saturday, Sabathia and Lee will open the World Series as opposing starters (though the Angels still have something to say about the Yankees' participation).

"You wish they could be doing it in an Indians uniform," Shapiro said of Sabathia and Lee.

Each pitcher won a Cy Young Award with the Indians. But their tenure in Cleveland was never going to be long-lasting. Shapiro chalks that up to the "realities of the business." In other words, they are just too good to stay into their free-agent years.

Shapiro said it's been so long he couldn't recall exactly what the Indians offered Sabathia for him to stay in Cleveland, but one source back in the spring of 2008 pegged the figure at $72 million for four years, which turned out to be $89 million shy of Sabathia's $161 million Yankees haul. Shapiro did say the other day that the Indians understood that their offer was probably "unrealistic," but the franchise clearly loved Sabathia and wanted to give it whatever small shot they had. The Indians, though, long have had an unwritten policy against paying any one player an inordinate percentage of their small-market payroll, and Sabathia's true market value would have made the Indians' payroll about the most lopsided in baseball.

In the case of Lee, the Indians never made an offer. Lee put together a stunning 22-4 Cy Young season in 2008, and some baseball people saw it as something of a mirage at the time. (Those people may have been wrong.) In any case, the Indians decided against making another unrealistic offer to a pitcher coming off a Cy Young season when they met in the spring of this season, so they tabled the talks.

Lee's market value wasn't nearly as high as Sabathia's the spring before, as Lee's poor 2007 season raised an issue to some about whether 2007 or 2008 was the aberration. Plus, with an extra year to go before free agency (the Indians held a $9 million option on Lee for 2010), Lee couldn't expect free-agent market value at that point. Nonetheless, the Indians made no offer, as perhaps they themselves wondered whether 2008 was the aberration. (This spring, another Indians person did suggest to me that they didn't view Lee as being in the class of Sabathia, though that isn't exactly an insult.)

Considering the Indians still held that 2010 option on Lee, the Indians entered the 2009 season with no real intention to trade him. However, when they got off to a terrible start for a second straight year, the "realities of the business" hit them.

Shapiro said he wasn't absolutely ordered to trade Lee and hitting star Victor Martinez, but apparently it was made clear by ownership that if they kept those two players, payroll restrictions would prevent any significant moves to enhance their 2010 roster. "We probably could have made the choice to bring Cliff and Victor back, but we would have no ability to add at all," is how Shapiro put it.

So the choice became whether to stay status quo with a floundering team or try to regroup. They chose to regroup. As they always do, the Indians' intellectual front-office folks examined their options from all sides. And they decided what seemed obvious: It would make no sense to return basically the same team in 2010 following the disaster that was '09. So Lee and Martinez were going to go, and they were going to do whatever they could to enhance their future. They wound up trading for a hoist of under-25 prospects with a heavy emphasis on pitchers.

The Indians' many dealings also helped determine a lot of contending teams' fates. Martinez went to the Red Sox, and he enhanced their lineup and turned Jason Varitek into a backup. Rafael Betancourt improved the Rockies' bullpen. Mark DeRosa lengthened the Cardinals' lineup. Ryan Garko made less impact with the Giants.

Lee and Martinez were the clear commodities of the group, and for Lee it came down to the Phillies and Dodgers, the two teams that would meet in the NLCS. The Indians and Dodgers talked extensively, but those talks never seemed as serious to the Indians because the best L.A. could offer were prospects Cleveland saw as a couple years away from the big leagues. Cleveland wasn't about to give up on 2010, so they concentrated on Philadelphia.

The Phillies had been talking extensively to the Blue Jays about Roy Halladay, but didn't want to part with the Jays' sky-high request of J.A. Happ, Kyle Drabek and Dominic Brown. And when Toronto declined an offer of Happ, Carlos Carrasco, Michael Taylor and Jason Donald for Halladay, the Phils wisely switched to concentrate on Lee. That call may have won them a second straight pennant.
Eventually the Indians accepted the Phillies' offer of pitchers Jason Knapp and Carrasco plus infielder Donald and catcher Lou Marson. One competing executive said the Indians did "OK" under the circumstances, but said he sees Donald as "a solid, not great player who'll hit .270 in the big leagues," further opined that Marson "can hit but his throwing isn't great," and that while Carrasco has talent, he wonders if he'll reach his full potential.

The Indians were hurt in all their dealings by a newly increased valuation placed on prospects (an "overvaluation" Shapiro called it at the time, and I would agree). And they were also stung when Knapp, perhaps the best prospect in the deal, needed microfracture shoulder surgery, knocking him out of action for a full year. In any case, the Indians probably felt they had little choice. Shapiro said, "We got two guys who could probably start for us next year as opposed to two draft choices."
Baseball, too, apparently viewed Sabathia as the much more valuable property, as the Indians received two very top prospects, slugger Matt LaPorta and outfielder Michael Brantley, from the Brewers for only a half year of Sabathia. Whereas, the Lee market was tighter even though the option ties him to his current team through the end of '10.

It's too early to pass real judgment on any of the Indians' trades as they received very young players. In all, the Indians acquired 11 prospects this summer, all under 25 and nine of them pitchers. Shapiro said the Knapp injury is a blow but that "you can't ever evaluate trades (for prospects) in the short term."

In the very short term, Shapiro is watching the playoffs with extreme interest. Although, Shapiro said he predominantly thinks of the personal side of the trades, which makes him happy for Lee and Sabathia. Shapiro was closer to Sabathia, who was drafted as an Indian (Lee came in that lopsided trade for Bartolo Colon that also netted Cleveland Grady Sizemore and Brandon Phillips), and Shapiro said, "When I see CC Sabathia, I only feel positive thoughts about the human being he is, and whatever small role I might have played in his life."

But Shapiro added about the Indians-influenced postseason, "Of course, it is bittersweet."

 

[Gunther]

I agree, Ajak0410, where is the "sweet" part? Bitter, I got, sweet, not so much.

Edit: Oh, I get it - it's "sweet" for NY and Philly.

 

[Chris]

Wow. Depressing

 

[sjeppe]

I think more like %^&* we should have those two guys anchoring our rotation and leading us to the playoffs. Nothing is sweet about it!

 

[-Akronite-]

Jon Heyman should be fired (his editor too) for allowing "sweet" and "Indians" to be in the same sentence. Right now, there is nothing sweet about the Indians.

 

[macbdog]

This is "sweet" for Shapiro and the Tribe FO because they actually developed relationships with the two players in question and honestly wish them well. Sweet because the two best pitchers in the postseason blossomed in this organization. Carl Willis was CCs first pitching coach in the minors and eventually joined him in the bigs. Sweet for the Tribe brass on a personal level, as they watched both grow up from kids into premier players.

I think all know what is bitter- not only that these guys are posting these #s for another team, but also Cleveland fans in general towards any player that leaves and dare remains productive. Why fans can't just wish a guy well and let them move on stupifies me. You don't have to root for the Yankees to root for CC to do well, and if you hold a grudge against a guy who spent 7 years here and still loves the city then I really have nothing else to tell you.

 

[steveo]

its sweet because it shows the complete lack of wanting to do anything but steal money from fans. and not giving any inclination of attempting to compete.

At least Mangini, or whoever is running the browns shoot sunshine up our asses about how we are trying to improve, when we arn't. The indians are a lost cause. Fuck them.

 

[Ajak0410]

I think all know what is bitter- not only that these guys are posting these #s for another team, but also Cleveland fans in general towards any player that leaves and dare remains productive. Why fans can't just wish a guy well and let them move on stupifies me. You don't have to root for the Yankees to root for CC to do well, and if you hold a grudge against a guy who spent 7 years here and still loves the city then I really have nothing else to tell you.

Yeah, actually you do. I wished him well in Milwaukee. I wish Cliff Lee, Ryan Garko, Ben Francisco, VMart and Betancourt excellent careers. But I wish continued and embarrassing failure of epic proportions on any player that signs a contract with the Yankees.

I hope one day CC will come to his senses and leave the Yankees so I can root for him again(because I do like him) but unless he does that, I can't.

Here's another article in the same vein by Cleveland boy Posnanski:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/joe_posnanski/10/28/lee.sabathia/index.html

World Series lament for Indians fans: What might have been

Back in 1977, when the New York Yankees won their first World Championship in 15 years, they had a team filled with ex-Cleveland Indians. Or anyway, it felt that way as a kid growing in up Cleveland.

Look: Yankees' First baseman Chris Chambliss had played for the Indians. Superstar third baseman Graig Nettles had played for the Indians. Outfielder Lou Piniella had played briefly for Cleveland AND reliever Dick Tidrow had played for Cleveland AND ... OK, well, really that's about it. The Yankees' tough catcher, Thurman Munson, was from Akron ... well, hey, there were rumors that he wanted to come back to Cleveland. The owner, George Steinbrenner, was from Cleveland.

Funny, looking back on it, there weren't quite as many ex-Indians as I remembered.

Still, it felt like a big deal in Cleveland in 1977. The Indians were terrible then, the Browns were terrible, the Cleveland jokes were a part of America's every day culture, and we were about to enter a winter that was so brutally cold and miserable that the city of Cleveland closed down schools for the entire month of February. Still, through it all, I remember people talked about those ex-Indians who had led the Yankees to the World Series. It felt so wrong. There was something about it that felt like a punch to the gut.

Some of those feelings are back. The Indians are terrible again. The Browns ... yeah. And on Wednesday night, the last two Cleveland Indians to win the Cy Young will be pitching Game 1 of the World Series -- CC Sabathia for the New York Yankees and Cliff Lee for the Philadelphia Phillies. Indians management felt pressured to trade both because of salaries ... the Indians could not afford to keep them. Their No. 1 starter going into 2010 could be one of about 10 different pitchers -- David Huff, Fausto Carmona, Aaron Laffey, Jake Westbrook -- and the only thing connecting them is that none is a No. 1 starter.

This is the other view of the World Series, the flip-view from fans of small-market teams watching the dreams come true for everyone else. Sure, this World Series has the potential to be exciting, maybe even a classic. The Phillies are defending world champs. The Yankees have their mojo back. Philadelphia's Jimmy Rollins is guaranteeing victory. New York's Alex Rodriguez is laying waste to the countryside. Philadelphia's Ryan Howard has hit more home runs the last five years than any other player. New York's Mariano Rivera remains utterly invincible ... he's that rare living legend who is as good as ever. The Phillies players seem to believe they are unbeatable this time of year. The Yankees seem to put so much pressure on their opponents that they can't help but make huge mistakes. Yes, this could be a great World Series.

But I can tell you that's not how the World Series looks in those small-market baseball towns where the baseball talk revolves around how soon the good players will be too expensive to keep. I can tell you how baseball fans in Kansas City will view this Series. They will watch Philadelphia's Raul Ibanez and remember how Royals management took him off the scrap heap and gave him a chance to play. Ibanez -- one of the class acts in baseball -- was 29 years old then, and he had never gotten even 250 at-bats in a season. The conventional wisdom was that he simply could not be an every-day player. The Royals made him an every-day player in June of 2001 -- he was hitting .150 at the time. The Royals gave him a full-time job the next season, and again in June he was hitting sub-.200. The Royals stuck with him because, well, in part because they were the Royals and didn't really have any other options. But it was also because they believed Ibanez could hit. And he did hit. He ended up having a good season, and a pretty good season the next year. The Royals decided they couldn't afford him -- and he signed with Seattle and has been a very good player ever since.

Kansas City fans will watch Yankees left fielder Johnny Damon. The Royals drafted Damon when his stock was low -- Damon did not even hit .300 in his senior year of high school -- nurtured him through some dreadful early years when his offensive approach looked more like a tennis backhand than a baseball swing. The Royals were so desperate to inspire loyalty in Damon that they bought him a house in Kansas City. Really. Looking back, it seems quaint, almost sweet. Of course, it was also ridiculous. Damon became a very good player, too good a player for the Royals to afford, and so they traded him away. He has taken his own unique baseball journey, which finally brought him around to wearing pinstripes. It has been almost a decade since that happened, but the fans in Kansas City -- like spurned lovers angry at an old high school flame who got away -- still boo Damon whenever he comes to town.

This is the hard reality of the World Series. It is not a celebration for everyone. Year after year, it is also a time for fans of losing teams to see their old stars, and remember the promise, and think about what might have been, had ownership been a little wiser and had a little more money to work with.

This year, though, the clear winners in the "What could have been" World Series sweepstakes are Cleveland fans. The Indians had Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia in their pitching rotation for about four and a half seasons -- from the start of 2004 until Sabathia was traded mid-season in 2008. During that time, the Indians had two winning records, two losing records and made the playoffs once. Lee and Sabathia never had great seasons at the same time -- they were never quite Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling. Lee went 18-5 and finished fourth in the Cy Young voting in 2005, but Sabathia had one of his least impressive seasons (15-10, 4.03 ERA). The next year Sabathia was a lot better, and Lee faltered some. In 2007 Sabthia won the Cy Young, but Lee had a miserable season -- he was sent down to the minors that year. In 2008 Lee won the Cy Young, but that was the year Sabathia was traded to Milwaukee.

In other words, the Indians never really got to cash in on having developed two of the best left-handed starters in baseball. Baseball is funny that way: For teams without big payrolls the key is not just developing good players: The timing is also crucial. In the last eight years or so, the Indians have had young versions of Sabathia, Lee, Victor Martinez, Travis Hafner, Grady Sizemore, Jhonny Peralta, Brandon Phillips, Milton Bradley, Coco Crisp, Fausto Carmona ... all of whom at one point or another looked like future stars.

Some became stars, some did not, but the Indians have an overall losing record over those eight seasons and on Wednesday night Indians fans are left with their noses pressed against the restaurant front window, left standing in the rain while their old heroes Cliff Lee and CC Sabathia try to set the tone for this World Series.

 

[cdt]

Yeah, really no positive spin as the two best teams in the MLB have two of our former pitchers as the Ace's of their staffs. Add in a Carmona from a few years ago and we could have a World Series.