Shootouts and explosions in Paris

[gourimoko]

Q-Tip will never actually admit that there are underlying issues including the Palestinian occupation that is the driving force behind many of these continued attacks.

We had this conversation over a year ago when he said the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had no bearing on continued terrorism.

It's just a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Surely you remember Somalia, and Kosovo, and Iraq bombings, and Iraq no-fly zones, and Iraq sanctions by the peace-loving Democrat Bill Clinton.

Somalia??? Hundreds of thousands of Muslim people were starving to death there, and we certainly weren't "indiscriminately bombing" anyone.

And Kosovo? Are you nuts? We bombed the Serbian Christians there to protect Muslims.

Nor did the U.N.-imposed (and supported by Muslim nations) on Iraq amount to "indiscriminate bombing". In case you forgot, Iraq had invaded another Arab state.

But you mentioned 9/11, which is what I responded to, and they made it clear why they did that. If those reasons were good enough for 9/11, surely they would work for the embassy bombings too.

Well, I certainly doubt that given that the Kosovo War happened after OBL/AQ issued their 1996 and 1998 fatwas.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

You buy that shit? Check the date out --it's from 2002. That was post-9/11 propaganda intended to rally Muslims, mentioning a whole bunch of shit about which Q had never previously cared. They were reading our press clipping and playing to appeasers in the West.

If you want to see their real reasons, why not look at what they were saying before they attacked us, in the actual fatwas they issued in 1996 and 1998 - both issued prior to the Kosovo war, and the latter right before the attacks on our embassies? Here you go:

http://www.heritage.org/research/projects/enemy-detention/al-qaeda-declarations

The primary reason was that we had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia to provide assurances against another attack by Saddam -- that's why the 1996 fatwa was entitled ""Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places,", with the "Two Holy Places" being Mecca and Medina. We didn't have troops at either place, but the mere fact that we had troops in the country period was enough of a motivation. Bombing not required.

No bitching about Kosovo, although he did bitch about Somalia in the first one. But again, that's a joke. We were trying to prevent people from starving, not "indiscriminately bombing" them as you claim.

But he bitched about the government of Saudi veering away from strict sharia -- which he blamed on us and the Zionists, and he bitched a lot about the fact that some extremist terrorists watned by Egypt had been arrested in Albania and sent to Egypt. That really pissed him off.

The other issue that was mentioned was the "Zionist Conspiracy", which OBL essentially blamed for everything bad happening to any Muslim worldwide, including anti-guerilla activities in the Phillipines, and the afor-mentioned arrest of those Egyptians.

Bottom line is that your initial statement -- that 9/11 was in retaliation for "a decade of bombings" is wrong no matter how you look at it. Shit, the first fatwa was issued in 1996.

[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[The Oi]

Somalia??? Hundreds of thousands of Muslim people were starving to death there, and we certainly weren't "indiscriminately bombing" anyone.

And Kosovo? Are you nuts? We bombed the Serbian Christians there to protect Muslims.

Nor did the U.N.-imposed (and supported by Muslim nations) on Iraq amount to "indiscriminate bombing". In case you forgot, Iraq had invaded another Arab state.



Well, I certainly doubt that given that the Kosovo War happened after OBL/AQ issued their 1996 and 1998 fatwas.



You buy that shit? Check the date out --it's from 2002. That was post-9/11 propaganda intended to rally Muslims, mentioning a whole bunch of shit about which Q had never previously cared. They were reading our press clipping and playing to appeasers in the West.

If you want to see their real reasons, why not look at what they were saying before they attacked us, in the actual fatwas they issued in 1996 and 1998 - both issued prior to the Kosovo war, and the latter right before the attacks on our embassies? Here you go:

http://www.heritage.org/research/projects/enemy-detention/al-qaeda-declarations

The primary reason was that we had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia to provide assurances against another attack by Saddam -- that's why the 1996 fatwa was entitled ""Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places,", with the "Two Holy Places" being Mecca and Medina. We didn't have troops at either place, but the mere fact that we had troops in the country period was enough of a motivation. Bombing not required.

No bitching about Kosovo, although he did bitch about Somalia in the first one. But again, that's a joke. We were trying to prevent people from starving, not "indiscriminately bombing" them as you claim.

But he bitched about the government of Saudi veering away from strict sharia -- which he blamed on us and the Zionists, and he bitched a lot about the fact that some extremist terrorists watned by Egypt had been arrested in Albania and sent to Egypt. That really pissed him off.

The other issue that was mentioned was the "Zionist Conspiracy", which OBL essentially blamed for everything bad happening to any Muslim worldwide, including anti-guerilla activities in the Phillipines, and the afor-mentioned arrest of those Egyptians.

Bottom line is that your initial statement -- that 9/11 was in retaliation for "a decade of bombings" is wrong no matter how you look at it. Shit, the first fatwa was issued in 1996.

So do you feel that the list of reasons OBL claims as reasons to attack America, do you believe that he was lying? Do you believe that other radical Muslims are lying when they claim the same reasons?

Do you think it's because they hate our freedom? Why do you think they do it?

 

[LennoxLewis]

Q-Tip will never actually admit that there are underlying issues including the Palestinian occupation that is the driving force behind many of these continued attacks.

We had this conversation over a year ago when he said the Israeli-Palestinian conflict had no bearing on continued terrorism.

It's just a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

With the way the media portrays the conflict, its easy to see why there is a big misunderstanding about the conflict. Plus Bibi and his people do everything they can to not only undermine peace efforts, but use other horrible tragedies to justify their actions against Palestinians, including with what happened in Paris.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

So do you feel that the list of reasons OBL claims as reasons to attack America, do you believe that he was lying?[ Do you believe that other radical Muslims are lying when they claim the same reasons?

First, I want to keep a focus on the exact statement to which I was responding -- that the reason for the bombing of the embassies and 9/11 was "a decade of indiscriminate bombing". which is nothing more than the "its our fault and we deserved it" line of bullshit. We weren't even arguably "bombing indiscriminately" at any point during the 90's, so that's false as a matter of fact. Of course, @OptimusPrime then started mentioning things like the Iraq sanctions which had nothing to do with bombings, but his statement still stood. And to your point, it's not even the reason given by OBL himself.

As to your question, I think what OBL wrote in his 1996 fatwa reflected his honest beliefs. It was issued by him personally. And for him (as a Saudi), the first thing listed and most important was the (peaceful) U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia, which he viewed as intolerable from his perspective of religious bigotry.

You should read that whole crazy thing sometime, because it really points out that there is absolutely no living with people who think as he does. To him, almost everything bad that happens anywhere in the world is due to Zionists and the "Crusaders." Peace is impossible.

Do you think it's because they hate our freedom? Why do you think they do it?

I think the primary reason they do it is because they want to establish an oppressive religious dictatorship throughout the ME, and are violently opposed to anyone who stands in their way. They view our influence in that region as being opposed to that, so they want to defeat us. That's exactly why ISIS attacked the French -- because they, like a great many other people - abhor and oppose what ISIS is doing in that region to the people living there.

That's why ISIS and AQ they have engaged in terroristic acts against fellow Muslims, and the immediate impetus for the 1998 bombings was generally considered by most intelligence folk to be the arrest and extradition of some Egyptian terrorists from Albania to Egypt, which we helped facilitate.

The whole myth that they're simply "avenging" evils committed by the West is bullshit. If we did absolutely nothing, they'd continue trying to enslave -- through religious edict and oppression-- everyone else in that part of the world. That's what they really want.

 

[No Regard]

You should read that whole crazy thing sometime, because it really points out that there is absolutely no living with people who think as he does. To him, almost everything bad that happens anywhere in the world is due to Zionists and the "Crusaders." Peace is impossible.

How is this any different from the US administration putting the blame on terrorists, or some decades ago, on the communists?

Peace is impossible as long as the weapon industry is as powerful as it is. No reason for peace when you can earn billions on war.

The whole myth that they're simply "avenging" evils committed by the West is bullshit. If we did absolutely nothing, they'd continue trying to enslave -- through religious edict and oppression-- everyone else in that part of the world. That's what they really want.

We have touched this subject before, Q-Tip, but I honestly think that it's ignorant to simply dismiss it as a myth. The hate against the Western world, who hide their oppression behind empty labels such as Democracy and Freedom, is very much alive.

You talk about oppression, you talk about the extremists trying to enslave everyone else in the part of the world. My question to you is then: What is the Western world trying to do? What have they in fact been doing the last couple of centuries, by pushing their agenda, their economic system, their political beliefs, their philosophy and secularity on the rest of the world?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

How is this any different from the US administration putting the blame on terrorists, or some decades ago, on the communists?

Why don't you actually read that 1996 fatwa before claiming there's no difference?

We have touched this subject before, Q-Tip, but I honestly think that it's ignorant to simply dismiss it as a myth. The hate against the Western world, who hide their oppression behind empty labels such as Democracy and Freedom, is very much alive.

You talk about oppression, you talk about the extremists trying to enslave everyone else in the part of the world. My question to you is then: What is the Western world trying to do? What have they in fact been doing the last couple of centuries, by pushing their agenda, their economic system, their political beliefs, their philosophy and secularity on the rest of the world?

If you don't see any difference between ISIS on the one hand, and the Western world on the other, then perhaps you can explain why there aren't people fleeing here to go live under ISIS?

 

[No Regard]

If you don't see any difference between ISIS on the one hand, and the Western world on the other, then perhaps you can explain why there aren't people fleeing here to go live under ISIS?

I'll leave that to Mr. Huxley:


Edit as you edited:

Why don't you actually read that 1996 fatwa before claiming there's no difference?

My comment was directed to your interpretation of the fatwa, not what may or may not stand in the original document:

To him, almost everything bad that happens anywhere in the world is due to Zionists and the "Crusaders." Peace is impossible.

 

[OptimusPrime]

If we did absolutely nothing, they'd continue trying to enslave -- through religious edict and oppression-- everyone else in that part of the world. That's what they really want.

For people like Bin Laden, that may be true. But what the fuck is an old man going to do with no followers? You know how he gets followers? Starving millions of people in Iraq, blowing up thousands of people throughout the region. The survivors that are destitute and lost family to U.S. aggression that was never warranted are easily swayed by guys like Bin Laden. And the more get killed, the more followers they get, and the bigger the problem. Which is exactly what our government wants, because then people like you will keep calling for perpetual fighting over there, and the money will keep rolling in to the politicians and their friends.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

For people like Bin Laden, that may be true. But what the fuck is an old man going to do with no followers? You know how he gets followers? Starving millions of people in Iraq, blowing up thousands of people throughout the region.

You're trying to fit reality into your preconceived ideology. Did you ever notice the background of most terrorists? Rarely are they are they poor and destitute. They tend to be educated, middle class, etc.

And Iraq? Of the 19 9/11 hijackers, 16 were Saudis. One was Egyptian, one was Lebanese, and one from the U.A.E. Not a single one of them was Iraqi no matter how much you personally opposed U.S. (and U.N. and almost entire rest of the world) policy regarding Iraq in the 90's.

Or perhaps you're referring to the embassy bombings? of the 21 people linked to that, a grand total of ZERO were Iraqi.

The survivors that are destitute and lost family to U.S. aggression that was never warranted are easily swayed by guys like Bin Laden. And the more get killed, the more followers they get, and the bigger the problem.

Right, I get it. The only way to eliminate them is to do absolutely nothing and ignore them. The President apparently agrees.

Although it's kind of funny that ISIS exploded only after we withdrew from Iraq, and got stronger the less involved we were. It's almost like their motives aren't limited just to "revenge" against the West or something....

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

My comment was directed to your interpretation of the fatwa, not what may or may not stand in the original document:

And you still haven't read it....

Your comment is still messed-up because you're confusing your hyperbole with facts. We don't blame terrorists for everything that goes wrong in the world -- that's only your hyperbole. For example, we don't blame AQ for Russia invading the Crimea or The Ukraine.

On the other hand, OBL blames Israel for the government of the Philippines fighting radical Muslim insurgents. Which you'd have known if you actually read it.

See the difference?

Any opposition to radical Islam, anywhere, is blamed on the "Zionists and Crusaders", even when it is just ordinary people, Muslim, Christian, or whatever, trying to resist the oppression of Islamic extremists for their own reasons. So unless the entire rest of the world stops trying to resist murderous Islamic extremism, we are going to be blamed, and be a target.

That's why I said there's no living peacefully with people like that.

 

[OptimusPrime]

You're trying to fit reality into your preconceived ideology. Did you ever notice the background of most terrorists? Rarely are they are they poor and destitute. They tend to be educated, middle class, etc.

And Iraq? Of the 19 9/11 hijackers, 16 were Saudis. One was Egyptian, one was Lebanese, and one from the U.A.E. Not a single one of them was Iraqi no matter how much you personally opposed U.S. (and U.N. and almost entire rest of the world) policy regarding Iraq in the 90's.

Or perhaps you're referring to the embassy bombings? of the 21 people linked to that, a grand total of ZERO were Iraqi.



Right, I get it. The only way to eliminate them is to do absolutely nothing and ignore them. The President apparently agrees.

Although it's kind of funny that ISIS exploded only after we withdrew from Iraq, and got stronger the less involved we were. It's almost like their motives aren't limited just to "revenge" against the West or something....

Why do you think nationality means anything to them? The U.S. slaughtered Sunni Muslims in Iraq. Al-Qaeda are/were Sunni Muslims. They don't give a fuck about nationalism. You are fitting fantasy into your preconceived ideology and calling it reality. And your ideology is ridiculous. The idea that for purely religious reasons they are going to incite the wrath of the biggest, baddest, most bloodthirsty nation on the planet is absurd. If their goal was a worldwide caliphate, they would probably start smaller and try a different method. Unless you think the likes of them are too stupid to come up with a better plan.

And you have an income breakdown of their recruits? Even if you did and were right, which you're not, no matter how much money they have, losing their house or their family would be pretty traumatic, emotionally and financially, wouldn't it?

You know what's really funny is that ISIS didn't exist until the U.S. destroyed Iraq. And it didn't explode until American money and arms started flowing in to overthrow the Libyan and Syrian governments. It's almost like their motives are irrelevant, because they are reliant on U.S. intervention to get anything done.

 

[No Regard]

And you still haven't read it....

Your comment is still messed-up because you're confusing your hyperbole with facts. We don't blame terrorists for everything that goes wrong in the world -- that's only your hyperbole. For example, we don't blame AQ for Russia invading the Crimea or The Ukraine.

Sure, I do exaggerate some, no denying that, though I don't see why it necessarily invalidates my point.

On the other hand, OBL blames Israel for the government of the Philippines fighting radical Muslim insurgents.

See the difference?

Yes, I do.

Any opposition to radical Islam, anywhere, is blamed on the "Zionists and Crusaders", even when it is just ordinary people, Muslim, Christian, or whatever, trying to resist the oppression of Islamic extremists for their own reasons. So unless the entire rest of the world stops trying to resist murderous Islamic extremism, we are going to be blamed, and be a target.

This is true, which is why the whole situation's so fucked up with no easy solutions.

That's why I said there's no living peacefully with people like that.

True that. But it's bloody hard living peacefully with "people like us" as well.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

On the subject of Israel -- which is relevant because it is mentioned in both fatwas -- it's important to recognize exactly what those jihadis believe, and the scope of what they seek.

It's not "we want a return to the 1967 borders". That's the pin-dance that goes on between more moderate Arabs and Israel, but it isn't the issue for the true radicals. They won't be remotely satisfied or appeased even if Israel withdrew completely back to the '67 borders. The only likely effect of that would be to encourage them into thinking they are that much closer to total victory.

They want Israel destroyed. Completely. To them, the existence of Israel at all is an obscene occupation that must be ended. So even if you could appease the moderate Arabs with a return to the '67 borders, it still wouldn't solve the problem of the radical jihadis, who themselves are actually fighting against those same moderate Muslims, whom they view as traitors.

 

[MalTalm]

You're trying to fit reality into your preconceived ideology. Did you ever notice the background of most terrorists? Rarely are they are they poor and destitute. They tend to be educated, middle class, etc.

This is very true. It's also historically relevant: The Bolshevik revolution wasn't spearheaded by the poor and destitute it was meant to bolster, it was middle class citizens who had seen their standard of living drop over a decade, and had no reason to believe that would change. It's doctors and lawyers... The same was true in the French revolution, both the American revolution and the Civil War... The same thing has been happening throughout the Middle East for 30 years, but people aren't fighting themselves anymore, they are lashing out at a Western philosophy. We have some of those problems throughout the world right now though, that's why I think the ISIS philosophy gains a surprising amount of traction worldwide with people who never before even identified themselves as Muslim. Things aren't what they expected, and they don't know how to channel the emotion, but fixing the issue isn't within their control.

But Optimus is right about one critical thing: This isn't a religious issue. It's a regional and an economic one. Extremism isn't new to the world, and it's been dressed in many other fabrics than Muslim.