OptimusPrime
Back in 2002
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2010
- Messages
- 11,187
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- 123
Irrelevant. Extremely unlikely that this option is in Putin & co's playbook. Moreover, if Putin & co. decided to do so, it would be waging war on more than just Ukraine. Countries around Ukraine are not going to idly stand by.
That's exactly what they are doing and going to do.
Irrelevant, again. The area under armed conflict is not Crimea. So moot point. You really need to look at a map. Please do so. Educate yourself.
The annexation of Crimea is what started the whole mess.
Some truth here. Some lack of understanding. Some blatantly made up bullshit. Yes, a large number of Ukrainians are refusing their conscription orders. As for lack of understanding--the reason for not wanting to fight isn't due to not wanting to fight and die for people that do not want to be there. Rather it is due to a sense of fatalism. They don't see winning as being tenable, the risk of dying is credible, and nobody seeming to care is disheartening. If Ukraine were properly armed and could repel the rebels properly, the issue with conscription would likely vanish. As for people rather wanting to fight against Kiev than Moscow, you are just making shit up in an attempt to support your stance. That you would even make such a statement proves either you know nothing about Ukrainian society or you are just willing to lie to "prove" a point.
I've talked to native Ukranians about what is going on. Maybe their views are the minority. I don't know or care. But when people openly defy their government's conscription, that doesn't bode well for that government. Again, as in most of my points, these are my general thoughts about the whole debacle over there. The only policy I subscribe to is stay the fuck out of someone else's war.
You are treating Europe as a unified whole. It isn't. Many voices exists on the subject. (I don't believe that you really believe it, but are just throwing it out there as a way (albeit, lame way) to justify your argument. People here are going to call you on it, so why even bother with such a claim. Begin by examining Lithuania's stance on the matter.
By Europe I mean the European Union. Germany, France, etc. They have told Obama repeatedly not to arm Ukraine. No one gives a fuck what Lithuania's stance is on the matter.
And by meddling, what do you mean? Sanctions? Arming Ukraine (and what does that entail). The U.S. is already providing military support, but not arms. As pointed out in the article linked to in the OP: "As a statement from the American embassy in Kiev noted, the United States has already pledged nearly $240 million in military support in 2014-15, with further military training programs due next month. The United States has been backing Ukraine’s forces for months. This talking point already exists. This claim is already firmly entrenched in the Kremlin’s playbook."
Arming Ukraine is what they have publicly opposed, for the reason that war with Russia will just ruin everyone involved. So it would follow that any of our actions which have led to and would escalate this war would also be condemned.
Immediate & direct threat? Perhaps not. But, it is foolish to think that Russia's aggression in the region will not have far reaching and latent consequences. At this point, it is a matter of calculation and deciding if potential consequences constitute a reason to ramp up military support. I am not saying that it is, but I certainly am not willing to state that what Russia is doing in Ukraine will not have any impact on the U.S. or its relations in the region.
If you are going to make an argument for why the U.S. should not get involved, check out your facts first and use them honestly. Making shit up doesn't make them true; moreover, it undermines your credibility to speak on the subject matter.
If you stance is the U.S. should not intervene because you don't feel it is an immediate threat, just stick with that as your point of reasoning. Right or wrong, at least it isn't made up.
That is always my stance on wars abroad that have nothing to do with us.