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Sugary Drink Sin Tax

Do Not Sell My Personal Information
Then I don't understand why you believe that question hasn't been answered. You've been told repeatedly by a few folks that the ultimate decision as to lifestyle and diet should be left to individuals. If that means that some people remain obese, so be it.

You interpret that as "doing nothing" but that's confusing the result -- still obese -- with the doing of informing people and letting them make their own choices.
You are still conflating a $0.01 per oz tax with the government dictating your lifestyle. That is a complete strawman, and frankly absurd once one understands that you are really making the argument that any tax imposed by the government is dictating your behavior. Is the gas tax the government stating that people are no longer able to drive? Is your property tax the government saying you are not allowed to own land? Nobody has proposed the government making decisions for anyone. Simply making one product slightly more expensive than others and letting customers make their own buying decisions.

And I am not confusing anything. I am pointing out that your position, that of a lack of any intervention, results in more and more obese people and higher and higher societal costs as a result.
 
First, because I don't think the federal government should be (or is constitutionally empowered to be) running social welfare programs. There are a number of reasons for that, but one is that states are limited in their ability (most constitutionally but all as a practical matter) to run extended deficits. The federal government, however, is not under the same level of constraints, and entitlement programs therefore have the very real potential to grow wildly out of control, and consume huge amounts of the federal budget. Entitlement programs also have a way of building powerful political constituencies, which makes controlling such programs that much more difficult.

I also oppose both programs to the extent (which varies) they provide unearned benefits to people. There's an argument that at least some of the benefits paid out reflect sums paid in by each recipient, so to that extent, this objection doesn't apply.

And just as a reminder, my comment that started all this was precisely the ethics of taxing some people to pay unearned benefits out to others. So to the extent we are discussing other government health care programs where there is no linkage at all between what you paid in (if anything) and benefits received, the objection would be much stronger. Which is why putting everything under the vague rubric of "universal health care" papered over a substantive distinction.
I'd be interested to hear how social welfare programs are unconstitutional in light of Helvering v. Davis.

Sticky spot you are in. Against federal programs due to their potential runaway costs, yet against the government taking action to lessen those costs.

The idea of opposing programs due to their offering of unearned benefits is curious considering many receive far more than they pay in for police, firefighters, military, roads, bridges, food inspection, airspace infrastructure, clean water, antitrust enforcement, etc. Why draw the line at social programs?
 
You are still conflating a $0.01 per oz tax with the government dictating your lifestyle. That is a complete strawman, and frankly absurd once one understands that you are really making the argument that any tax imposed by the government is dictating your behavior.

Any tax will affect behavior at some level because it leaves you with less money to spend on other things. An opportunity cost, essentially. I don't object to taxes in principle on that basis, though I might object to the amount of the tax or on what the money is being spent.

But if taxes have the effect of steering specific behavior, rather than amounting to a more broad form of opportunity cost, then I'm going to be asking more questions. And I'm going to be even more skeptical of taxes that have as a desired purpose (rather than just an effect) of steering behavior.

For example, user fees are charged when you use a specific service, and they are the payment for that service. Those have the effect of steering behavior because they make that activity more expensive, but that is simply a product of paying individually for the direct cost of what you have chosen to do as an individual. Don't want to pay the tax, don't use the service.

Gas taxes are at least partially a form of that -- we pay gas taxes to pay for things directly relating to that driving, like construction of roads and bridges, etc.. Got no problem with that. Now, if gas taxes were hiked specifically for the avowed purpose of discouraging people from living in rural areas because some people think urban life is niftier, then yes, I'd be pissed.

As to the fat people example, I'm all for individual accountability. So rather than taxing everyone who chooses to drink soda, regardless of whether they are receiving government-funded health care or not -- I'd prefer to quit paying for that government-funded health care period so it is no longer any of my business what they choose to drink. Plus, I believe what foods we each choose to consume are such a matter of personal choice that the government has no business trying to steer us in one direction or the other.
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I am pointing out that your position, that of a lack of any intervention, results in more and more obese people and higher and higher societal costs as a result.

And again, I'd point out that this remains true if we're going to let them continue not to exercise, or to eat red meat, fattening foods, etc. So let me ask you this -- why aren't you also in favor of taxing snack foods like chips, cookies, baked goods, fatty meats like bologna, etc., more heavily as well?

And I know you're not proposing that. But I'm asking whether or not you would support it, and why/why not.
 
I'd be interested to hear how social welfare programs are unconstitutional in light of Helvering v. Davis.

Oh, I agree that the courts have found them to be constitutional. I just think those cases are wrongly decided, just as I thought Plessy , Dred Scott, Mistretta, McConnell v. FEC, etc., were wrongly decided,

Sticky spot you are in. Against federal programs due to their potential runaway costs, yet against the government taking action to lessen those costs.

Eh? I'm perfectly in favor of reducing those costs by eliminating those programs. Failing that, I support reducing benefits. And I'm certainly opposed to adding another new entitlement program on top of the three major ones we already had, which only increased those costs.

The idea of opposing programs due to their offering of unearned benefits is curious considering many receive far more than they pay in for police, firefighters, military, roads, bridges, food inspection, airspace infrastructure, clean water, antitrust enforcement, etc. Why draw the line at social programs?

It's not remotely curious. There are a lot of things in which the government has its nose with which I don't agree. And, there are matters of degree and practicality even on those functions that I do believe are proper, such as police, fire, road maintenance, defense, courts, etc. where direct apportionment of usage to amount paid is not possible. I want police protection, courts, roads, etc., and know that I cannot have those unless we're all taxed, even if those taxes are not proportionate to usage.

That's not the case with direct, unearned wealth transfers, because I don't want those in the first place. If I do choose to engage in charity, I can always do that voluntarily.
 
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@Maximus , wait.. you liked this post? You're against Social Security and Medicare? Wtf?
 
Any tax will affect behavior at some level because it leaves you with less money to spend on other things. An opportunity cost, essentially. I don't object to taxes in principle on that basis, though I might object to the amount of the tax or on what the money is being spent.

But if taxes have the effect of steering specific behavior, rather than amounting to a more broad form of opportunity cost, then I'm going to be asking more questions. And I'm going to be even more skeptical of taxes that have as a desired purpose (rather than just an effect) of steering behavior.
You said that the ultimate decision on lifestyle and diet should be left to consumers, implying that a tax on drinks with added sugars is the government taking that decision away. That was absurd. Now, your position appears to be that the government should not tax for the purpose of steering specific behaviors. That is a defensible position, and I will say that I disagree. Reasonable people can. The government has a significant interest in protecting the health of its people, and placing a slightly higher cost on harmful products, again not banning, is directly within its power. People retain all choice and many will continue to choose drinks with added sugars, and that is their right.

As to the fat people example, I'm all for individual accountability. So rather than taxing everyone who chooses to drink soda, regardless of whether they are receiving government-funded health care or not -- I'd prefer to quit paying for that government-funded health care period so it is no longer any of my business what they choose to drink. Plus, I believe what foods we each choose to consume are such a matter of personal choice that the government has no business trying to steer us in one direction or the other.
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The problem is, you not paying for others' health care is never going to happen. We are not getting rid of medicare and medicaid, so your position is purely theoretical. That is why I asked for real-world solutions to reduce the consumption of added sugars, as they are a direct cause of increased obesity and eventually health care costs overall.


And again, I'd point out that this remains true if we're going to let them continue not to exercise, or to eat red meat, fattening foods, etc. So let me ask you this -- why aren't you also in favor of taxing snack foods like chips, cookies, baked goods, fatty meats like bologna, etc., more heavily as well?

And I know you're not proposing that. But I'm asking whether or not you would support it, and why/why not.
I discussed this in Post #224. I believe the government should not interfere in any matter unless as a last resort and people should be free to eat and drink whatever they want, no matter how unhealthy.

The market has resulted in the increased offering and consumption of added sugars in our diet, with resulting large scale health and economic costs according to the top experts in the field. So in this limited case, I believe we should address the specific concern of added sugars. Not all sugary, fatty, or high calorie foods. Only those that have caloric sweeteners added during the production process. The so called "empty calories" that provide no nutritional value and make up 16% of our diet.

So to directly answer your question, I would not propose any tax on (non sugary) snack foods or fatty meats because, while they are "unhealthy", I do not believe they are the proximate cause of the obesity epidemic. Added sugar is.
 
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@Maximus , wait.. you liked this post? You're against Social Security and Medicare? Wtf?

Well, he didn't "like" the post where I dissed Medicare/Social Security specifically. Though I think regardless of how you feel about social welfare programs in general, the bottomless pit aspect of being federally funded could give a lot of people pause.

He "liked" the post that focused exclusively on benefits that were wholly unearned, which as I mentioned earlier, isn't completely applicable to either Social Security or Medicare.
 
Well, he didn't "like" the post where I dissed Medicare/Social Security specifically. Though I think regardless of how you feel about social welfare programs in general, the bottomless pit aspect of being federally funded could give a lot of people pause.

He "liked" the post that focused exclusively on benefits that were wholly unearned, which as I mentioned earlier, isn't completely applicable to either Social Security or Medicare.

I got that Q-Tip, kinda wanted to hear his opinion, though. It's not a position I thought he, or pretty much anyone other than Optimus, would have.

It obviously leaves people out in the street to die. Having no social welfare programs leaves kids hungry in the streets, women and children homeless and in the cold. No Social Security means the elderly would surely, as they historically have, be completely reliant on their savings and children - and when both disappear, they would be completely destitute. Yes, charity exists, but historically it doesn't cover anywhere near a majority of cases.

It's as if history has been forgotten.

This isn't a proper logical response, because I'm kinda swamped at the moment (actually have to work today).

But I find the position untenable, personally.

We'll see in a bit.
 
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You said that the ultimate decision on lifestyle and diet should be left to consumers, implying that a tax on drinks with added sugars is the government taking that decision away.

No, it isn't taking that decision completely away, but it is using the power of the state in an attempt to steer that decision, which I also oppose.

The problem is, you not paying for others' health care is never going to happen. We are not getting rid of medicare and medicaid, so your position is purely theoretical. That is why I asked for real-world solutions to reduce the consumption of added sugars, as they are a direct cause of increased obesity and eventually health care costs overall.

I think the government using taxes to steer choice on these subjects is a great ethical wrong than the additional marginal cost caused by those sodas. And of course, the vast majority of the people paying that tax are not receiving government-funded health care, so it's really a double-whammy on all those people. They not only are compelled to pay for the unearned healthcare of other adults, but also are having to pay more for soda themselves.

The market has resulted in the increased offering and consumption of added sugars in our diet, with resulting large scale health and economic costs according to the top experts in the field. So in this limited case, I believe we should address the specific concern of added sugars. Not all sugary, fatty, or high calorie foods. Only those that have caloric sweeteners added during the production process. The so called "empty calories" that provide no nutritional value and make up 16% of our diet.

Fair enough. Line-drawing always involves the weighing of competing factors, and the mere fact that there is a certain level of arbitrariness to a line doesn't invalidate it.

That being said, I think taxing "unhealthful foods" other than soda at some point becomes more likely if we give in on this one. It's tougher to argue the principle once it already has been surrendered.
 
It obviously leaves people out in the street to die. Having no social welfare programs leaves kids hungry in the streets, women and children homeless and in the cold. No Social Security means the elderly would surely, as they historically have, be completely reliant on their savings and children - and when both disappear, they would be completely destitute.

I would suggest that this still happens to some degree, at least if you believe all the social welfare activists who tell us about all the homeless people, and all those who go to bed hungry. The entitlement state hasn't solved that. If anything, it as enabled the expansion of a much larger class of people unable to support themselves.

In the context of health care, I believe the entitlement state has been a key driver -- along with first-dollar insurance -- in increasing costs. When you have guaranteed third party payment, you're begging for providers and suppliers to increase costs/prices. The solution has made the problem larger.

Yes, charity exists, but historically it doesn't cover anywhere near a majority of cases.

We did not have significant numbers of people dying in the streets prior to those programs.
 
No, it isn't taking that decision completely away, but it is using the power of the state in an attempt to steer that decision, which I also oppose.

Though we are agreeing to disagree on this, I will point out that these are measures placed on the ballot and then approved by the people, so while "using the power of the state" is technically correct, this is hardly the government coming in and imposing its will against the expressed interests of the people.

I think the government using taxes to steer choice on these subjects is a great ethical wrong than the additional marginal cost caused by those sodas.
In making this determination, what was your additional marginal cost caused by soda (assuming you used soda as a fill in for beverages with added sugars)? Because the cost of obesity is "$190 billion a year in additional medical spending ... or 20.6 percent of U.S. health care expenditures." I take it your answer to how much would it have to cost to treat obesity in order for you to approve of the government steering choice through a slight tax is never?

Fair enough. Line-drawing always involves the weighing of competing factors, and the mere fact that there is a certain level of arbitrariness to a line doesn't invalidate it.
Thank you.

That being said, I think taxing "unhealthful foods" other than soda at some point becomes more likely if we give in on this one. It's tougher to argue the principle once it already has been surrendered.
I disagree that we should paralyze action now in fear of future action that has not been proposed.
 
Though we are agreeing to disagree on this, I will point out that these are measures placed on the ballot and then approved by the people, so while "using the power of the state" is technically correct, this is hardly the government coming in and imposing its will against the expressed interests of the people.

True, but its likewise the will of the majority if 51 people vote to eat the other 49. Doesn't make it right ethically.

In making this determination, what was your additional marginal cost caused by soda (assuming you used soda as a fill in for beverages with added sugars)? Because the cost of obesity is "$190 billion a year in additional medical spending ... or 20.6 percent of U.S. health care expenditures." I take it your answer to how much would it have to cost to treat obesity in order for you to approve of the government steering choice through a slight tax is never?

My answer really isn't a product of quantification. I mean, if you said that soda doubled the cost of government health care, my response would be either 1) then cancel the whole damn thing, or 2) make not drinking soda a condition of receiving benefits, etc..

At no point do I think that it is right to steer people who pay their own health care costs away from soda just because some other people on the public teat drink too much of it.

I disagree that we should paralyze action now in fear of future action that has not been proposed.

Group aims to tax fatty and unhealthy foods

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (KTHV) -- There is a big push for putting higher taxes on fatty and unhealthy foods.

Some public health advocates are pushing cities and states to tax fattening, non-nutritious items like soda, french fries, and donuts.

Opponents say poor Americans would pay too much and people should have the right to eat what they want.

With the percentage of obese adults doubling in the past 30 years and the percentage of obese children tripling, tthe annual health care cost of obesity has soared to over $100 billion.

Some industry experts, including author and food columnist Mark Bittman, think soda and junk food should be taxed, just like cigarettes. He says, "The way we discouraged smoking and continue to discourage smoking is we tax cigarettes a lot in some states, and we force the tobacco companies to contribute money to anti-smoking programs. Now, if we taxed soda and junk food similarly, and began a huge public health campaign that said, this is the way we ought to eat, we might see similar results."

http://archive.thv11.com/news/article/166304/2/At-5--A-tax-on-cheeseburgers

And as a point of interest on the "slippery slope" argument, I'd point out that Arkansas is one of those states that has passed a tax on soda.

"First, they came for my sodas. And I did not drink soda, so I said nothing. Then, they came for my cheeseburgers...."

Easy to laugh at it, but events make it no laughing matter. The video attached to that article shows that the proposals are being advocated not just in Arkansas, but by major eastern universities, etc.. The video is from a New York station that clearly endorses such actions. And the justifications for taxing sugary sodas are woven in seamlessly with the justification for taxing cheeseburgers and everything else deemed "unhealthful".
 
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I would suggest that this still happens to some degree, at least if you believe all the social welfare activists who tell us about all the homeless people, and all those who go to bed hungry. The entitlement state hasn't solved that. If anything, it as enabled the expansion of a much larger class of people unable to support themselves.

1) You don't need to listen to "social activists" to understand there are hungry and people in need in this country. I don't know where you live, but if I walk outside here in L.A. there is poverty.

2) The argument that there is still poverty doesn't negate the fact that social welfare programs help people. This is a logical fallacy on your part.

3) Your argument implies that people were better off without these programs, then you directly state this below. As far as I can tell, this is counterfactual.

In the context of health care, I believe the entitlement state has been a key driver -- along with first-dollar insurance -- in increasing costs. When you have guaranteed third party payment, you're begging for providers and suppliers to increase costs/prices. The solution has made the problem larger.

Can you make this same claim on a factual, statistically analytical basis? Citing a source? I'd like to refute this claim, but I want you to narrow it down rather than chasing it around every post like we've done before.

We did not have significant numbers of people dying in the streets prior to those programs.

I think, Q-Tip, you're playing loose and fast with the facts...

Nearly 1 in 4 people were suffering from abject poverty prior to major welfare programs being implemented in the United States. That was cut to 1 in 9 in just a few years.

I think having almost a quarter of your population living in poverty would be considered "significant." And while people were not starving to death in the streets, millions of elderly Americans often died in the poorhouse due to lack of access to proper nutrition, adequate shelter, medicine, and general care.

--quote--
Before Social Security, Most Americans Faced Very Bleak Retirement
By
CYNTHIA CROSSEN Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
Updated Sept. 15, 2004 12:01 a.m. ET
Getting old is rarely regarded as a happy prospect, but before Social Security, aging in America often meant penury and sometimes even the poorhouse.

When America was a nation of farmers, men and women who no longer could do hard physical labor frequently lived with their children and contributed to the domestic economy by babysitting, tending the garden, sewing or cooking. By 1920, however, when more Americans lived in cities than on farms, old people faced a bleaker future. Urban homes were smaller, and wages paid the rent. Once people became too old to earn a salary, they were, however loved, an economic encumbrance.

"In the U.S.," a government adviser wrote in 1934, "many workers can escape the economic problems of old age only by dying before their period of superannuation sets in."

Ironically, while life expectancy was rising quickly, many employers shunned older workers. A 1930 survey found that almost a third of 224 American factories had maximum age limits for new employees. Four plants wouldn't hire anyone over the age of 40. In another 41 plants, the age limit was 45. The rest had no fixed limits, but they rarely hired people over the age of 50.

Retirement nest eggs, except among the wealthiest Americans, didn't exist. How could they? Even at the peak of the stock-market boom in 1929, the average annual income of all salaried employees was $1,475 -- the equivalent in purchasing power of about $16,000 today. Without health insurance, an aging person's savings could be quickly drained by medical bills.

A handful of people worked for paternalistic companies that would tolerate dead wood while a faithful employee coasted into retirement. And a few companies offered retirement annuities, though in the early decades of the 20th century, only about 2% of employees were covered. "Most private pensions existed not as a right, but a favor," wrote David Hackett Fischer in his 1977 book, "Growing Old in America." At most factories and offices, when older workers' productivity began to slip, they were simply dismissed.

State governments enacted old-age pension plans in the early 20th century, but they were mostly underfunded and undersubscribed. Some old people balked at the idea of "going on welfare." State plans also were vulnerable to regional interests: In Louisiana in 1937, old-age pensions were reduced in June and July so that elderly blacks would help to harvest cotton. In other agricultural areas, relief offices simply closed during the harvest season.

The Depression was a catastrophic blow to almost every American, but none more than the elderly. For many people, said Franklin Roosevelt in 1934, old age is "the most tragic of all hazards." Thousands of old people from across the country wrote to Washington asking for help. "I'm a 60-year-old widow greatly in need of medical aid, food and fuel," wrote a Virginia woman. "I pray that you would have pity on me."

Mrs. M.A. Zoller of Beaumont, Texas, begged for someone to help her 82-year-old mother, who, she wrote, was diabetic, "out of funds completely," and had "no place to go unless it be to the poorhouse."

And over the hill to the poorhouse many older people went. Financed by local taxes, poorhouses were the shelters for all of a region's indigent, and in the early 20th century, most counties had one. The best of the poorhouses provided a meager standard of living. The worst doubled as insane asylums and orphanages. "I was three miles from town but felt like I was 3,000 miles from friends and country," wrote Ed Sweeney in his 1927 memoir, "Poorhouse Sweeney." "I have ate off trays that looked like they had spent the rainy season laying on a city dump."

Germany, Sweden, France and England, among other countries, already had legislated publicly funded old-age insurance before Americans took up the debate. Proponents in the U.S. wondered why men and women who had been diligent, thrifty workers should suffer hunger and insecurity in their old age. In a letter to an editor, a postal worker pointed out that horses owned by the federal government lived out their old age on full rations. "For the purpose of drawing a pension," he declared, "it would have been better if I had been born a horse than a human being."

Opponents argued that sensible people would provide for themselves, and that universal old-age insurance would set the country on the slippery slope to socialism. Children, not the state, were obliged to care for the old, they said; without that responsibility, family ties would loosen. And if employees were guaranteed lifetime support, wouldn't they feel less incentive to work hard?

Even after the Social Security Act became law, it was vigorously challenged in America's courts.

"The hope behind this statute," wrote Justice Benjamin Cardozo for the bare 5-4 majority of the Supreme Court in 1937, "is to save men and women from the rigors of the poorhouse, as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is near."


--end quote--

Sad that some folks would see others, including the elderly and children starve or go without medication.
 
1) You don't need to listen to "social activists" to understand there are hungry and people in need in this country. I don't know where you live, but if I walk outside here in L.A. there is poverty.

Agreed.

2) The argument that there is still poverty doesn't negate the fact that social welfare programs help people. This is a logical fallacy on your part.

Eh? But I never said they don't help people. My point is that those who criticize charity on the grounds that some people will fall through the cracks have to recognize that people are already falling through the cracks.

3) Your argument implies that people were better off without these programs, then you directly state this below. As far as I can tell, this is counterfactual.

It is virtually impossible to make a direct quantitative comparison because there are too many factors/variables that cannot be adequately measured. There is more wealth now than there was 60 years ago -- would charitable giving have increased as well in the absence of entitlement programs? Did the entitlement programs enable self-destructive behaviors that have increased the likelihood that individuals will not be able to support themselves? So yes, we're helping more people, but perhaps that largely because there are so many more people who need to be helped.

Can you make this same claim on a factual, statistically analytical basis? Citing a source? I'd like to refute this claim, but I want you to narrow it down rather than chasing it around every post like we've done before.

Well, I know I've read a variety of articles about it, it is logical (prices won't go up as fast if people cannot afford to pay them), and I suspect others have read similar things as well. It's been a point raised in the context of student loans as well -- that the existence of those loans is one of the factors that has driven up college costs. Come to think of it, I think I posted one such article in another thread here.

But, I'm not really inclined to take the time to go digging for such articles, and then argue the minutie with you. That really isn't of any interest to me because I personally see that as fairly self-evident. But feel free to disagree -- I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Before Social Security, Most Americans Faced Very Bleak Retirement
By
CYNTHIA CROSSEN Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal
Updated Sept. 15, 2004 12:01 a.m. ET
Getting old is rarely regarded as a happy prospect, but before Social Security, aging in America often meant penury and sometimes even the poorhouse.

When America was a nation of farmers, men and women who no longer could do hard physical labor frequently lived with their children and contributed to the domestic economy by babysitting, tending the garden, sewing or cooking. By 1920, however, when more Americans lived in cities than on farms, old people faced a bleaker future. Urban homes were smaller, and wages paid the rent. Once people became too old to earn a salary, they were, however loved, an economic encumbrance.

"In the U.S.," a government adviser wrote in 1934, "many workers can escape the economic problems of old age only by dying before their period of superannuation sets in."

Ironically, while life expectancy was rising quickly, many employers shunned older workers. A 1930 survey found that almost a third of 224 American factories had maximum age limits for new employees. Four plants wouldn't hire anyone over the age of 40. In another 41 plants, the age limit was 45. The rest had no fixed limits, but they rarely hired people over the age of 50.

Retirement nest eggs, except among the wealthiest Americans, didn't exist. How could they? Even at the peak of the stock-market boom in 1929, the average annual income of all salaried employees was $1,475 -- the equivalent in purchasing power of about $16,000 today. Without health insurance, an aging person's savings could be quickly drained by medical bills.

A handful of people worked for paternalistic companies that would tolerate dead wood while a faithful employee coasted into retirement. And a few companies offered retirement annuities, though in the early decades of the 20th century, only about 2% of employees were covered. "Most private pensions existed not as a right, but a favor," wrote David Hackett Fischer in his 1977 book, "Growing Old in America." At most factories and offices, when older workers' productivity began to slip, they were simply dismissed.

State governments enacted old-age pension plans in the early 20th century, but they were mostly underfunded and undersubscribed. Some old people balked at the idea of "going on welfare." State plans also were vulnerable to regional interests: In Louisiana in 1937, old-age pensions were reduced in June and July so that elderly blacks would help to harvest cotton. In other agricultural areas, relief offices simply closed during the harvest season.

The Depression was a catastrophic blow to almost every American, but none more than the elderly. For many people, said Franklin Roosevelt in 1934, old age is "the most tragic of all hazards." Thousands of old people from across the country wrote to Washington asking for help. "I'm a 60-year-old widow greatly in need of medical aid, food and fuel," wrote a Virginia woman. "I pray that you would have pity on me."

Mrs. M.A. Zoller of Beaumont, Texas, begged for someone to help her 82-year-old mother, who, she wrote, was diabetic, "out of funds completely," and had "no place to go unless it be to the poorhouse."

And over the hill to the poorhouse many older people went. Financed by local taxes, poorhouses were the shelters for all of a region's indigent, and in the early 20th century, most counties had one. The best of the poorhouses provided a meager standard of living. The worst doubled as insane asylums and orphanages. "I was three miles from town but felt like I was 3,000 miles from friends and country," wrote Ed Sweeney in his 1927 memoir, "Poorhouse Sweeney." "I have ate off trays that looked like they had spent the rainy season laying on a city dump."

Germany, Sweden, France and England, among other countries, already had legislated publicly funded old-age insurance before Americans took up the debate. Proponents in the U.S. wondered why men and women who had been diligent, thrifty workers should suffer hunger and insecurity in their old age. In a letter to an editor, a postal worker pointed out that horses owned by the federal government lived out their old age on full rations. "For the purpose of drawing a pension," he declared, "it would have been better if I had been born a horse than a human being."

Opponents argued that sensible people would provide for themselves, and that universal old-age insurance would set the country on the slippery slope to socialism. Children, not the state, were obliged to care for the old, they said; without that responsibility, family ties would loosen. And if employees were guaranteed lifetime support, wouldn't they feel less incentive to work hard?

Even after the Social Security Act became law, it was vigorously challenged in America's courts.

"The hope behind this statute," wrote Justice Benjamin Cardozo for the bare 5-4 majority of the Supreme Court in 1937, "is to save men and women from the rigors of the poorhouse, as well as from the haunting fear that such a lot awaits them when journey's end is ne

ar."

To the extent Social Security benefits are a form of forced savings for retirement, that's a different debate. I'm open to some form of that. The current structure of making it an entitlement funded by the bottomless pit of the federal government is the core of my objection, because for all the good it does, it also is unsustainable long term, and puts a huge, and unfair, burden on younger workers.

Sad that some folks would see others, including the elderly and children starve or go without medication.

I do think there is a moral obligation to provide some level of support for children. Didn't ole Newt talk about orphanages? But I oppose any entitlement where a parent or parent who is unable to provide necessities for a child receives government money to do so. If you can't afford your kid, you'll have to rely on private charity or give up the kid for adoption/placement.
 
Eh? But I never said they don't help people. My point is that those who criticize charity on the grounds that some people will fall through the cracks have to recognize that people are already falling through the cracks.

No one is criticizing charity. Again, that portion of your claim is fallacious.

It is virtually impossible to make a direct quantitative comparison because there are too many factors/variables that cannot be adequately measured.

Yeah, this is false.

There is more wealth now than there was 60 years ago -- would charitable giving have increased as well in the absence of entitlement programs?

Err, can you draw any factual basis for the inference that charity could some how care for millions of impoverished people?

Did the entitlement programs enable self-destructive behaviors that have increased the likelihood that individuals will not be able to support themselves? So yes, we're helping more people, but perhaps that largely because there are so many more people who need to be helped.

Perhaps? Based on what?

Again, can you demonstrate, statistically any of this? Unemployment is down, poverty is down, crime is down, levels education, self-reliance, independent living, and opportunities have increased.

Simply put, what facts are you looking at to give you the idea that Social Security and Medicare have a net negative effect on society?

Well, I know I've read a variety of articles about it,

Can you cite a few?

it is logical (prices won't go up as fast if people cannot afford to pay them), and I suspect others have read similar things as well. It's been a point raised in the context of student loans as well -- that the existence of those loans is one of the factors that has driven up college costs. Come to think of it, I think I posted one such article in another thread here.

Let's keep the topic on Social Security, Medicare, and the most basic forms of social welfare; student loans are another topic entirely.

Again, can you provide factual data to support your argument?

But, I'm not really inclined to take the time to go digging for such articles,

Without such, I'm going to say your argument is baseless. I'm more than willing to provide facts to support my claims.

and then argue the minutie with you.

Then why respond to my posts? You're not making logical arguments if there isn't factual data to support your conclusions.

That really isn't of any interest to me because I personally see that as fairly self-evident.

That's illogical.

But feel free to disagree -- I won't try to convince you otherwise.

Sounds like you're bullshitting then.

To the extent Social Security benefits are a form of forced savings for retirement, that's a different debate. I'm open to some form of that. The current structure of making it an entitlement funded by the bottomless pit of the federal government is the core of my objection, because for all the good it does,

Social Security is not a retirement program; it's an insurance program. The nature of your misunderstanding is probably why you think it should be doing things that it was not intended to do.

I'm all for turning part of it into a pension fund, but the insurance portion of the program is really the most important function.

it also is unsustainable long term,

Based on what? Social Security is solvent until 2033. One can hardly say the program is insolvent. Slight changes in the program, or increases in revenue, make the program solvent for the foreseeable future.

and puts a huge, and unfair, burden on younger workers.

Who will one day, likely, cash in on SSI.

I do think there is a moral obligation to provide some level of support for children. Didn't ole Newt talk about orphanages? But I oppose any entitlement where a parent or parent who is unable to provide necessities for a child receives government money to do so. If you can't afford your kid, you'll have to rely on private charity or give up the kid for adoption/placement.

So it is morally better, in your mind, to separate a child from the mother and pay for their care (unnecessarily creating an orphan), rather than giving that same money to the mother to care for her child?
 

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