Tamir Rice Shooting

[Chris]

I may just be extremist on the issue, but if we need to lecture citizens about how to modify their behavior to avoid getting gunned down in cold blood by the police, we might just have a problem with the police.

That's a very one sided view of the issue.

 

[OptimusPrime]

That's a very one sided view of the issue.

Maybe. But there is only one side to the issue. The police are supposed to serve the people. Not kill them. They aren't the judge and jury.

I'm not even specifically talking about this case, but the unarmed people killed by police every single day. If they are heroes, then be heroic, and find out what is going on before you kill an unarmed or innocent person. Killing first, then assessing what happened isn't heroic. It's cowardice.

If people have to fear for their lives from the people that are supposed to protect them, then what the fuck do we need them for?

People don't need to conform their behavior to the desires of the police. The police need to conform their behavior to the desires of the people.

 

[spydy13]

It was a screw up.

There's no chance in hell the prosecutor could have gotten a conviction here, and as he's said subsequently, it would have been unethical to charge any of the officers involved.

The biggest problem with the criminal charge is that you have to prove some level of intent on the part of the individual who shot the kid, and it was a succession of errors by multiple people that created that situation. You can't prosecute an individual cop unless his individual actions rose to the level of a criminal offense, and that just wasn't the case here.

I think the most significant and the most inexcusable error was by the dispatcher(s) who did not pass on to the responding officers that the report stated that it was a boy with a gun that was "probably fake". Had the cops been told that, everything may well have turned out differently. But they weren't, so instead they reasonably believed they were responding to someone threatening other people with a real gun -- a very dangerous situation. But that error by the dispatchers isn't a crime, and you could not prosecute them for the subsequent shooting.

The second error was when the officer driving the vehicle pulled up too closely. That's just an error -- it doesn't even make sense to do that because you could be putting yourself at greater risk. Unless, of course, the driver was really worried that something bad might happen if they didn't get in there quickly. In any case, a bad decision, but again, you can't charge a cop with murder or manslaughter just because he pulled up too closely.

The cop who actually took the shot wasn't responsible for either of those mistakes. It wasn't his fault that he wasn't told it was probably a kid with a fake gun, nor was it his fault that his partner put him in the bad position of being too close. So when he hopped out, observed someone who was 5'7" and 195 lbs at a close range pulling a gun out of his waistband despite being told to freeze, that's a reasonable shot for a cop to take.

Just because none of the individual cops could not be prosecuted criminally doesn't mean that what happened was okay, or that the department "got away" with killing the kid. They paid millions of dollars in a settlement, got about the worst publicity possible, and have every incentive in the world too try to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

And just to be clear, the fact that the department erred collectively doesn't mean there weren't other mistakes as well that were not the responsibility of the cops. It is too bad that some of the folks protesting the police action aren't also talking about what civilians can do on their end to minimize the risks of such mistakes happening again.

Did those people who made mistakes get fired? I can understand that you can't necessarily put someone in jail for a mistake, but if you make a mistake that gets a someone killed shouldn't that be a fireable offense?

I mean, the kid paid for his mistake with his life. Did anything happen to the cops?

 

[czvo]

Dude this was the biggest problem in the whole situation. The cops completely botched the way they approached the scene.



There's a reason Tamir Rice pulled that orange tip off his airsoft pistol: it's because sticking somebody up wouldn't be as fun if there was an orange tip on your gun.

When he pulled that orange tip off, and decided to go fake robbing people; he put his life in jeopardy whether he got shot by someone with a concealed carry permit, or a police officer. You just don't go doing hooligan shit like that, or you might just pay the consequences for initiating a situation like that.

You don't go fake robbing people with a gun that looks so real! That's where Tamir's parents fucked up! That 12 year old boy wandered into the park with a gun that looks completely real and decided to intimidate people with it.




That's the bottom line.

The police could have handled the situation so much differently, they look like some cowboys hunting for action, but their actions pale in aggressiveness and ridiculousness compared to that Michael Brielo case IMO. That was heinous.

RIP young Tamir.

You're not the first guy I know who got shot and killed because they decided to pull that orange tip off and air-soft gun and stick somebody up.

Man... if that's the case, me, my friends and my brother should have been shot dead when we were kids.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Did those people who made mistakes get fired? I can understand that you can't necessarily put someone in jail for a mistake, but if you make a mistake that gets a someone killed shouldn't that be a fireable offense?....Did anything happen to the cops?

Sorry it took me this long to respond.

The dispatcher - who I believe made the most inexcusable error -- resigned her post almost immediately, so she's gone.

The two other cops have been on some kind of administrative suspension where they're relegated to desk jobs for now. But because of the union contract, there is a whole song and dance that must take place before they can be fired. And I think if you break it down, there's no way a firing of either cop would hold up. The only error of the cop who was driving was pulling up to close, and the cop who shot probably did what he was trained to do under those circumstances. I don't think either will qualify as a "fireable offense."

I mean, the kid paid for his mistake with his life.

But nobody is claiming that him paying with his life for that mistake was the right result, and an "unfair" result on one end shouldn't require an unfair result on the other. It was a horrible, horrible accident for which multiple people are to blame, though none of them acted with any kind of a criminal intent.

I'd add that the police union aspect of this is a huge, complicating factor in almost all of these cases. By law, unions owe a duty of fair representation to their members, so when one of them is accused of wrongdoing, the union (and it's members) almost reflexively rally around them. Anyone who has been a member of a strong union in a more civilian context can probably attest to that.

If we want faster, more severe repercussions for police misconduct/errors, then the first thing that you'd need to do is outlaw, or at least drastically limit, public employee unions. In particular, police unions. But the voters of Ohio rejected that, so.....

 

[spydy13]

Sorry it took me this long to respond.

The dispatcher - who I believe made the most inexcusable error -- resigned her post almost immediately, so she's gone.

The two other cops have been on some kind of administrative suspension where they're relegated to desk jobs for now. But because of the union contract, there is a whole song and dance that must take place before they can be fired. And I think if you break it down, there's no way a firing of either cop would hold up. The only error of the cop who was driving was pulling up to close, and the cop who shot probably did what he was trained to do under those circumstances. I don't think either will qualify as a "fireable offense."



But nobody is claiming that him paying with his life for that mistake was the right result, and an "unfair" result on one end shouldn't require an unfair result on the other. It was a horrible, horrible accident for which multiple people are to blame, though none of them acted with any kind of a criminal intent.

I'd add that the police union aspect of this is a huge, complicating factor in almost all of these cases. By law, unions owe a duty of fair representation to their members, so when one of them is accused of wrongdoing, the union (and it's members) almost reflexively rally around them. Anyone who has been a member of a strong union in a more civilian context can probably attest to that.

If we want faster, more severe repercussions for police misconduct/errors, then the first thing that you'd need to do is outlaw, or at least drastically limit, public employee unions. In particular, police unions. But the voters of Ohio rejected that, so.....

No worries on timing.

The whole union thing is tricky. I understand the need to make sure people putting their lives on the line extra levels of protection, but people who are bad at their job should be fired, especially when being bad at their job results in an unnecessary death.

I mean, I'm assuming that the 911 responder is under a different union/no union at all than the cop who drove way close to the scene, but both are, imo, just as much to blame for putting the other officer in the position to unnecessarily shoot Rice. I don't at all think these people should go to jail (and I agree with you that even if they went to trial they wouldn't get a conviction), but there should be some level of consequences for all the failures that happened in this case.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

No worries on timing.

The whole union thing is tricky. I understand the need to make sure people putting their lives on the line extra levels of protection, but people who are bad at their job should be fired, especially when being bad at their job results in an unnecessary death.

I agree. I personally don't like the idea of public employees only being subject to just cause for termination, but again, voters in Ohio rejected limitations on public unions.

I mean, I'm assuming that the 911 responder is under a different union/no union at all than the cop who drove way close to the scene, but both are, imo, just as much to blame for putting the other officer in the position to unnecessarily shoot Rice. I don't at all think these people should go to jail (and I agree with you that even if they went to trial they wouldn't get a conviction), but there should be some level of consequences for all the failures that happened in this case.

I don't know whether the dispatcher is in the same union or not. But she resigned so there weren't any administrative proceedings.

I agree there should be some level of consequences, and I suppose, eventualy, that will be decided.

My point in talking about all this is that if the goal is really to reduce such incidents, and not just assign blame to cops, then I'd like to see a public campaign along the lines of "how to interact with police", just as the cops already get classes on how to do that with civilians. It's not going to work if the dominant sentiment is "the police are a bunch of fascist thugs", because that's just likely to result in more confrontations with police that have the potential to go wrong.

The way I look at this, I doubt either of those two cops are happy with the result. Neither of them woke up that morning and hoped they'd get the chance to shoot a 12 year old with a toy gun. And I'd bet they'd give anything to go back and change what happened that day. So to the extent we are looking at punishment because otherwise, there's no deterrent, I suspect the "deterrent" of having killed an unarmed 12 year old is pretty effective on its own. And surely, the leadership of both the city and Department also wish this hadn't happened. It's been a PR and community disaster.

But the real issue is that given the number of police, and the hundreds of millions of encounters that happen between police and citizens every year, it is inevitable that mistakes in judgment and execution are going to be made. And the greater the number of truly risky encounters, the greater the likelihood of a tragedy.

So I think our role as citizens is to try to minimize the number of situations that have the potential to go bad if a bad judgement is made. Stuff like what Michael Brown did is just stupid even if you believe the shooting wasn't justified. Everyone -- citizens and police -- have to use their heads and good judgment to try to minimize the risk of things getting out of control, because accidents/mistakes in judgement are inevitable.

So when I get pulled over, I keep both hands on my wheel in plain sight, don't make any sudden moves, and "yessir" and "nosir" the cop, even if he's being a dick. If I have a problem with how he acted, I call or write afterwards. It's just not worth the risk to let pride get in the way when the other dude is carrying a gun.

 

[Soda]

The whole union thing is tricky. I understand the need to make sure people putting their lives on the line extra levels of protection, but people who are bad at their job should be fired, especially when being bad at their job results in an unnecessary death.

I mean, I'm assuming that the 911 responder is under a different union/no union at all than the cop who drove way close to the scene, but both are, imo, just as much to blame for putting the other officer in the position to unnecessarily shoot Rice. I don't at all think these people should go to jail (and I agree with you that even if they went to trial they wouldn't get a conviction), but there should be some level of consequences for all the failures that happened in this case.

This, unfortunately, is not reality with government jobs. There is a progression that must be followed and if it's not, the Union can and will bring it to a grievance and/or arbitration. I'd say that going straight to termination without progression in the semi-recent past leaves the door open to arbitration that will likely end up with the employee reinstated and "made whole" and the bill from the arbitrator sent to the City. Essentially, money spent on a futile argument that will end up being worthless in the end.

You're right regarding the dispatcher and officer in different Unions. The dispatchers are CPPA Civilian personnel while the police are represented by FOP, Lodge 8. CPPA doesn't go to bat for it's employees quite to the level of FOP, which likely explains the resignation of the dispatcher.

 

[OptimusPrime]

So when I get pulled over, I keep both hands on my wheel in plain sight, don't make any sudden moves, and "yessir" and "nosir" the cop, even if he's being a dick. If I have a problem with how he acted, I call or write afterwards. It's just not worth the risk to let pride get in the way when the other dude is carrying a gun.

Well, that's what I do too. I don't need to get killed over a speeding ticket. That isn't the point. The point is, why do we need to bow in reverence before these pieces of shit in order to keep from being killed? What country is this? What happened to "nor shall any person be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"?

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Well, that's what I do too. I don't need to get killed over a speeding ticket. That isn't the point.

I disagree. That is the exactly the point if you truly care about minimizing bad shootings. It's only "not the point" if the only thing you care about is grinding your ideological axe, lives lost be damned.

The point is, why do we need to bow in reverence before these pieces of shit in order to keep from being killed? What country is this? What happened to "nor shall any person be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"?

Because 1) every cop is not a " piece of shit", 2) every cop is human, humans make mistakes, and mistakes made in situations where there is a legitimate concern about death or serious injury can themselves have terrible consequences, and 3) because a certain small percentage of cops are assholes, and if I catch one of those cops on a bad day, I don't want to be the trigger that sets him off.

You can bitch and moan about what we "should" and "shouldn't" have to do in a perfect world, but I prefer to live in reality. As long as cops are humans, and humans aren't perfect, it's not only rational but just common decency to minimize the chance of a misunderstanding.

 

[Chris]

Well, that's what I do too. I don't need to get killed over a speeding ticket. That isn't the point. The point is, why do we need to bow in reverence before these pieces of shit in order to keep from being killed? What country is this? What happened to "nor shall any person be ... deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"?

Probably because, y'know, cops do get gunned down during traffic stops. It does happen. So...they are probably aware of this possibility when they walk up to your car. If you act the way you're supposed to, it shouldn't be an issue. It isn't really about bowing down in reverence, it's about some common decency. You may know you don't mean any harm, but they aren't mind readers.

 

[Pick6]

I'm so damn tired of hearing about Tamir Rice.

 

[spydy13]

You would think someone would have looked at this and thought, "Let's pick up the $500 tab on this one..."

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/inde...d_wants_tamir_rice_est.html#incart_river_home

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland wants the estate of Tamir Rice to pay for the boy's ambulance ride and medical services he received after he was shot by a city police officer.

Assistant law director Carl Meyers filed a claim in Cuyahoga County Probate Court Wednesday notifying Tamir's estate that it owes the city $500 for "ambulance advance life support" and mileage expense for the ambulance ride to MetroHealth Medical Center.

"The callousness, insensitivity, and poor judgment required for the city to send a bill—its own police officers having slain 12-year-old Tamir—is breathtaking," the family's attorney, Subodh Chandra, said in an emailed statement. "This adds insult to homicide."

Chandra represents members of Tamir's family in a civil lawsuit filed against the city.

Spokesmen for the city did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Tamir was shot by a Cleveland police officer Nov. 22, 2014, after he was seen playing with a replica airsoft gun in a West Side park.

Tamir's family sued the city, in part arguing that officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback showed indifference to Tamir's life by not giving him any emergency aid after Loehmann shot him.

The officers stood around Tamir for four minutes, until an FBI agent arrived at the scene and gave the boy first aid.

Attorneys for the family of Tamir Rice are asking a federal judge to again amend a lawsuit filed against the city of Cleveland for the 12-year-old's fatal shooting by a police officer.

The 911 caller also said Tamir looked like a juvenile and that the gun might have been fake, but that information was never relayed to officers Timothy Lohemann and Frank Garmback.

Garmback drove a police cruiser next to Tamir, and Loehmann shot him within two seconds.

A grand jury declined to indict the officers in December at Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy J. McGinty's recommendation. McGinty said enhanced surveillance footage showed the boy was pulling the gun out of his waistband -- likely to drop it or hand it to the officers -- when Loehmann opened fire.

 

[David.]

Scum.

There's some times when you do what's right, not what you can legally get away with.

I'll not tag names on this one, but shit like this is gross.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

This case they'll probably win. Just a matter of the amount.