The Andre Drummond Thread

[RchfldCavRaised]

I dunno.. Kinda hard to tell who's being told they're "suckin dick" and who's not. Just because Grant blew the draft doesn't mean Drummond supporters are "bitches" out here "sucking dick."

Saying that type of shit would get your ass dragged out into the street and beat where I'm from. So let's be easy with all the ambiguously directed insults and off-the-wall comments directed towards "some people."

Let's just debate Grant and Drummond..

I read that and looked around my office like... Brickman is feeling some kind of way tonight and a mod will probably clean that up for him before the AM.

Feel like I am losing my mind at times this season reading the aggressive support and rebuke of any criticism of this front office man.

 

[gourimoko]

I read that and looked around my office like... Brickman is feeling some kind of way tonight and a mod will probably clean that up for him before the AM.

Feel like I am losing my mind at times this season reading the aggressive support and rebuke of any criticism of this front office man.

It's crazy man...

However you feel about Grant or Waiters or Drummond or whatever, I'm just not understanding the vitriol. We're all Cavs fans, but that doesn't mean we can't be critical. Let Kyrie keep missing shots, or let Waiters mess up a single game, and the board will almost break. But Grant is treated like the Second Coming of Christ around here. It's unreal.

 

[Spencer Hawes]

Grant took a chance on Waiters and it didn't work out. Grant took a chance on Bennett and it didn't work out. Do you even read before you type? You want to constantly bitch about Grant's drafting, but you are giving Dumars a free pass on two of the worst free agent signings in league history? Two free agency signing that essentially crippled his team for multiple seasons, and will have an impact on the team's future until at least this off season? Get that weak stuff outta here!

If you read my posts, you'd see they had nothing to do with Drummond and everything to do with your worshiping of Dumars because he drafted Drummond. I'm fine with the fact that Grant should have drafted Drummond. He probably should have based on the evidence we have at hand right now. I didn't even mention Drummond in either of my posts that you've quoted. All I did was counter your ridiculously terrible points. You're the one who can't let the Drummond draft go. Not me. I'm over it. I've moved on, as have most Cavs fans. We can't go back and re-draft, and none of us has the personal power to fire our GM because we disagreed with his decision in the 2012 draft. At this point, it's just really fucking sad that some of you can't let go.

And my point is absolutely that we're no further to a championship to Detroit, despite rebuilding for two to three less years. Shouldn't that come into play when evaluating two GMs? Yes, Dumars won a championship over half a decade ago, but the NBA is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and lately he should have been fired several times over. Since breaking up that championship team, Dumars has proven approximately dick. His teams have sucked and his free agency signings have been about as bad as is possible.



Sure, I'll take your bet, but with the caveat that, if Detroit and Cleveland both make the playoffs this year, we each pay ten dollars regardless of seeding. Seems fair given the argument.

---

Bottom line, I really don't get why you seem to think I hate Drummond. I don't, or at least not for any other reason than he's a Piston and, being a Cavs fan, it's my job to hate his ass. If we had drafted him, I'd be supporting his ass the same way I support Dion, Kyrie, Thompson, Zeller, Bennett, Karasev, and anyone else we draft. What I really don't understand is this incessant need for some of you to suck this guy's dick every time he posts a great stat line, or the need to diminish the guy we drafted instead of him. We didn't draft Drummond, and while that might suck, it's time to move on.

It's funny that you blast Dumars when he never drafted in the top 4 anytime after Darko. Better yet, he never drafted in the top 6. His three highest picks recently was #7 Monroe, #8 Knight and #9 Drummond. He traded away Knight for Jennings and I wouldn't consider Jennings a terrible signing. Maybe a overpaid but still a solid player. He found solid rotational players in the 2nd round in players like Singler, Amir Johnson and Mehmet Okur. He found solid starters in the late first round in Delfino, Maxiell, Aaron Afflalo and Tayshaun Prince.

People like you want to blast him on the Darko pick and that's fine. He took a chance and it failed. But don't forget about all the other players that he drafted that are starters and made the all-star team. I'd say he's damn good evaluator of talent.

And guess what, he never had the luxury like Grant had of drafted in the top 4 in 3 drafts. Yet, he might come out with 2 all-stars to our 1 and our 1 was a no-brainer. So you tell me if Joe Dumars is a bad GM.

Btw, I'll take on your bet. I admire a guy who likes to put his money where his mouth is. Unlike some of the cowards in here. :chuckles:

 

[RchfldCavRaised]

It's crazy man...

However you feel about Grant or Waiters or Drummond or whatever, I'm just not understanding the vitriol. We're all Cavs fans, but that doesn't mean we can't be critical. Let Kyrie keep missing shots, or let Waiters mess up a single game, and the board will almost break. But Grant is treated like the Second Coming of Christ around here. It's unreal.

I've seen this before.

There were some who called this early with Grant, and they were ridiculed and ganged up against for voicing concerns early. Now that those concerns are pretty much being validated and echoed across the media, the gang gets really aggressive in their defense and the initial guys who were concerned get really obnoxious with their told you so's.

Happened on this hip hop forum where some were pretty damn sure Lupe pre-debut album (before it was leaked) was going to have the impact Kendrick Lamar has now. I was one of the Lupe supporters and we beat down on the guys who were pointing out the disconnects for Lupe that proved he wasnt going to toe the "cultural" line and be a hip hop savior.

Same goes here for Grant. There were signs pretty damn early that he wasnt a great talent evaluator, but a really good trade negotiator, and after 3 drafts that has proven to be true. Will be interesting to see if he can cover his talent evaluator blunders now with some really good trading.

 

[Toph]

But Drummond is treated like the Second Coming of Christ around here. It's unreal.

You're right about that :chuckles:

 

[faughta0509]

I think people are just asking for the same level of accountability that we (especially you :chuckles ask of our players. Why does Grant get a pass when Kyrie doesn't? Passing on Drummond will likely be remembered as one of the worst draft decisions in Cavaliers history. And just because we had other GMs going along doesn't make it any better of a decision. We drafted someone we didn't interview, and didn't measure on our own. Both Dion and Drummond were raw, and both need years of development, but Drummond obviously had the highest upside with the greatest value, with the most scarce qualities you can find - yet we decided to take Dion Waiters.

...

I wish that was the worst Cavaliers drafting decision in franchise history. We've taken some real putzes in the past.

 

[Rich]

Rich, Christ Grant has as much influence over the future of the Cavaliers franchise as Kyrie Irving, if not more. You don't understand why it's important to make sure your GM can spot talent when you're going into the 2014 draft? You don't understand why it's important that your GM knows how to make trades that are not entirely centered around the owner's willingness to take on salary?
I fear what might happen prior to the trade deadline, and I fear what might happen in the offseason if we end up with say, the 5th pick in a deep draft. Does Grant learn from his mistakes with Waiters and Bennett or not? Honestly, I'd rather he just not be making the pick. Hence the conversation.

What? Sometimes man....

Tell me, when it was said two weeks ago that Grant really messed up by passing on Drummond, what exactly has changed in those two weeks that saying it today will make it any more insightful or meaningful?

When it's said two weeks from now, will someone read it and go "you know, I've never heard that before. Grant really did miss on Drummond."

When its said a year from now, will it be different?

Point is, continuing to say the same thing 12 different ways day after day after day adds zero to this board.

Watch: Man, Chris Grant really should have taken Drummond. Bet I've really shown some people the light now.

Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Grant missed on Andre Drummond. Continuing to type this phrase out as many times a day as you can muster in no way will change that fact or in no way will enlighten anyone on the board at this point. We got it. We've been getting it for a while. We will still be getting it a year from now. My god, let it go.

 

[gourimoko]

And in all of this text, you neglected the one part of the quote that would have answered your continually mentioned question...

I fear what might happen prior to the trade deadline, and I fear what might happen in the offseason if we end up with say, the 5th pick in a deep draft. Does Grant learn from his mistakes with Waiters and Bennett or not? Honestly, I'd rather he just not be making the pick. Hence the conversation.

The point of the conversation is no different than making suggestons in the trade threads, or commenting on the performance of players.

We're not in control of the roster, so should we close the trade threads? We don't pick during the draft, so why bother discussing it ad infinitum, right?

The entire point of this forum is to discuss the Cavaliers, and one of the most important aspects of the franchise is the management team that runs said franchise. Why would they be off limits, but not the players, whom you criticize daily and incessantly?

You keep saying get over it, but it's not just about the past - it's about the future. The Cavaliers are stacked for a trade, and guess who's liable to make that trade. The Cavs will likely get a high draft pick, and guess who's likely to make that pick. That's why it's an important topic of discussion, if discussion is even possible.

 

[Rich]

And in all of this text, you neglected the one part of the quote that would have answered your continually mentioned question...



The point of the conversation is no different than making suggestons in the trade threads, or commenting on the performance of players.

We're not in control of the roster, so should we close the trade threads? We don't pick during the draft, so why bother discussing it ad infinitum, right?

The entire point of this forum is to discuss the Cavaliers, and one of the most important aspects of the franchise is the management team that runs said franchise. Why would they be off limits, but not the players, whom you criticize daily and incessantly?

You keep saying get over it, but it's not just about the past - it's about the future. The Cavaliers are stacked for a trade, and guess who's liable to make that trade. The Cavs will likely get a high draft pick, and guess who's likely to make that pick. That's why it's an important topic of discussion, if discussion is even possible.

Again, the performance of the players is an ever-changing debate. Chris Grant passing on Andre Drummond is set in a stone and has been for some time. Even the hiring of Mike Brown can be evaluated differently depending on how Mike has coached recently. But the Andre Drummond thing will never change. It's impossible to continue to glean anything useful from it.

You keep saying get over it, but it's not just about the past - it's about the future. The Cavaliers are stacked for a trade, and guess who's liable to make that trade. The Cavs will likely get a high draft pick, and guess who's likely to make that pick. That's why it's an important topic of discussion, if discussion is even possible.

But how, exactly, does continuing to harp on this one thing better anyone at all? What does this add to the debate at this point? It's been hammered home so many damn times that is becoming white noise.

And besides, it's barely used in that context. Generally, people aren't saying "Man, I'm really worried about any possible future trades because Grant has shown his ability to evaluate talent is questionable, partly based on the passing of Drummond."

No, normally it's just, "MAN I CANT BELIEVE GRANT PASSED ON DRUMMOND!!!" And the other various ways there are to type that out. Got it. It happened. It was a mistake. I'm not sure how continuing to point it out does anything for anyone when everyone knows it.

And it's only done with Grant. Notice when I post about Kyrie I don't continue to harp on some shot that Kyrie missed last season or some poor decision he made two years ago. Generally, I, and everyone else, talks in reference to his latest outing.

EDIT: And as a side point, I do feel people are too hard on the guy when the talent these last three drafts has been garbage. Rchfld, whom I do respect and who I readily admit was right about Drummond, is one of the biggest Grant detractors when it comes to his drafts on this board. Yet, he was on board for that Bennett pick. We all have hits and misses. This is why the standard shouldn't be "did we get the absolute best player that was possible at that spot" because that standard is impossible to meet. No one does that. I could redraft for every single team over the last three years and come up with a better list of guys who were drafted after they picked. The standard needs to be something lower than that.

 

[Jack Brickman]

It's funny that you blast Dumars when he never drafted in the top 4 anytime after Darko. Better yet, he never drafted in the top 6. His three highest picks recently was #7 Monroe, #8 Knight and #9 Drummond. He traded away Knight for Jennings and I wouldn't consider Jennings a terrible signing. Maybe a overpaid but still a solid player. He found solid rotational players in the 2nd round in players like Singler, Amir Johnson and Mehmet Okur. He found solid starters in the late first round in Delfino, Maxiell, Aaron Afflalo and Tayshaun Prince.

People like you want to blast him on the Darko pick and that's fine. He took a chance and it failed. But don't forget about all the other players that he drafted that are starters and made the all-star team. I'd say he's damn good evaluator of talent.

And guess what, he never had the luxury like Grant had of drafted in the top 4 in 3 drafts. Yet, he might come out with 2 all-stars to our 1 and our 1 was a no-brainer. So you tell me if Joe Dumars is a bad GM.

Btw, I'll take on your bet. I admire a guy who likes to put his money where his mouth is. Unlike some of the cowards in here. :chuckles:

When did I ever say Dumars was a poor talent evaluator? I think he's done a fine job of drafting, although I think everyone would have to admit that the Darko pick was one of the worst draft picks of all time considering who was drafted after him. All I said was that building a championship team a decade ago doesn't buy him a free pass for life. Since then he's drafted well enough, but his team hasn't made the playoffs in six years, and the last time they were there they were swept out of the first round. He also made two of the worst free agency signings of all time, chronicled in at least two of my other posts above.

You also seem to be putting words in my mouth. I never even mentioned the Jennings signing. I think he got Jennings for a fair price, although I question the long-term fit of Jennings, a low-efficiency and poor shooting point guard, with the other guys on that roster, only one or two of whom can hit threes at a rate above league average. For all that you guys kill Grant for his roster construction, the Pistons don't seem to be a team that was constructed any better. Did you know that Rodney Stuckey is the only player on the Pistons shooting above 35% from three this year? That team is where floor spacing goes to die.

And much like Rich, it's fine to say that Grant whiffed on Drummond, or that you don't like his drafting. The problem is that you guys just keep saying it...and saying it...and saying it. Nothing has changed. Typing that you hate Grant on a message board isn't going to get him fired. It's just going to annoy all the people that are sick of reading the same three sentences over and over and over again. We get it. Grant should have drafted Drummond. He didn't, and he's still our GM, and there's not a damn thing anyone but Dan Gilbert can do about it. Life goes on.

At least guys like Rch and gouri actually bring some new and intelligent arguments in from time to time, but some of you just beat the same damn drum to the point of deafness. It's fine if you want to masturbate to Drummond box scores in the comfort of your own home, but you don't have to come on here and give us a play by play. We all get what you're saying and many of us even agree. We're just sick of reading it because we've all read it a thousand times already.

 

[gourimoko]

Again, the performance of the players is an ever-changing debate. Chris Grant passing on Andre Drummond is set in a stone and has been for some time. Even the hiring of Mike Brown can be evaluated differently depending on how Mike has coached recently. But the Andre Drummond thing will never change. It's impossible to continue to glean anything useful from it.

In short, are we incapable of measuring Grant's performance?

 

[MRMsix6]

Have at it.

http://realcavsfans.com/showthread.php?40945-Chris-Grant-Cavaliers-GM

 

[Cashius X]

In Grant I trust.

 

[Jack Brickman]

In short, are we incapable of measure Grant's performance?

I mean, what are we measuring it by?

Are we measuring it by his draft picks? We still don't know how good Waiters will be, or if Bennett will pan out like many thought he would before he was drafted. We don't know if Kyrie will rediscover his mojo and claim his place as one of the best young players in the league. We don't know if Karasev or Zeller will become solid role-players or something more. We don't know how good Thompson will ultimately be.

Are we measuring it by his free agency signing? Considering the goal was always to keep the books clear for this summer, that seems a little pointless.

Are we measuring it by his trades? Thus far, pretty much all of his trades have been wins. He's stockpiled assets and is set up well for future trades.

Are we measuring it by team wins? Well, we were tanking until this year, and this year still has over 60 games left.

I'm just not sure, aside from disagreeing with his draft picks, what you think he's done so terribly.

 

[Toph]

Getting rid of Grant isn't going to change the fact that we didn't draft Drummond. I know it sucks but that's just how it is. I wish we had him, but we don't. Chris Grant is a good GM that missed on a guy in a draft that panned out (along with every other GM picking 2-8). He has stockpiled a shit ton of assets for this team, you can't argue against that.

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think Grant's drafting has been bad at all. Sure, he missed on Drummond, but it isn't like he was a consensus top 5 pick. I don't think many GMs would have taken Drummond with the roster we had at the time of the draft. We had made it clear that we wanted to get someone to pair Kyrie with in the back court. There were also lot of question marks surrounding Drummond.

And Waiters has shown more potential than most people in his draft class anyways. And TT could easily end up being the 3rd best player from the 2011 draft behind Kyrie and Klay. He has already given us exactly what we expected, a high character guy that can play good defense and crash the boards. He is already starting to display an offensive game that no one expected him to develop. And although Bennett has looked awful on offense, he hasn't been given many opportunities to capitalize on. Offense is the thing we knew Bennett was good at going into the draft. His defense was in question, which has been better than expected. He also has shown potential to be a serviceable rebounder as well. The jury is still out on him until he gets back into shape and actually plays more than 13 games.

But if we are going to judge every GM the way some of you judge Chris Grant then every last one of them will be out of a job. Someone always outperforms their draft position. And someone always under-performs. They can't see the future, so looking back in hindsight there will always be mistakes no matter who the GM is.