The Andre Drummond Thread

[Len]

Sure, it was a waste of time, but I considered it a 'unique programming challenge' more than anything :chuckles:

I agree, the numbers are skewed because of quotes, but my logic was that a reply to a post that referenced a person more than likely dealt with the same topic. In any case, here's the person by person breakdown. Again, this is the percentage of posts which referenced Dion or Grant compared to their total number of posts referencing Dion, Grant, or Drummond:

Birdy89: 34%
Banksy: 0%
Blue Kahuna: 40%
D-Wreck: 0%
Futuredome: 0%
gourimoko: 58%
Jack Brickman: 73%
Jon: 49%
Len: 39%
mAo_mAo: 54%
Mdog1: 100%
oasis05: 0%
Orange and BLue: 0%
PATRICK EWING: 0%
Playoffs God: 70%
qaws23: 0%
Randolphkeys: 45%
RchfldCavRaised: 69%
RealKingofCleve: 45%
Rich: 50%
STAT: 0%
theSTEREO.: 0%
Tornitroll: 42%
Triumph36: 0%

After all this, I still like Drummond. Someone needs to hook him up with Price or Nash to get some sort of Free Throw practice in. Although his form doesn't look horrible, the ball just never goes in.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I don't think the Wizards did, but the Bobcats.. probably..

I mean, if the Wizards didn't blow it passing over Drummond for Beal, it's hard to say with a straight face that we did.

Dion is shooting 41.9% from the floor to Beal's 40.7%. Beal is slightly better from three at 43.9%, but Waiters is close at 41.2%, and both numbers are well above league average. Waiters has a better PER, 14.05 to 13.62, meaning he's slightly more efficient offensively. Beal's per game stats seem more eye-popping, but a lot of that is because he plays twelve more minutes per game than Dion does (40.2 to 28.5). If you compare their per-36 numbers, they're damn near identical. Dion also averages slightly more steals and blocks despite that minutes difference.

Now if you want to argue that both teams screwed up, that's entirely fair.

Edit: And to be honest, I think both the Wizards and Cavs got the two-guard they needed most. The Wizards got a guy who isn't as dynamic but can shoot really well to pair with their pass-first point guard who can't shoot. The Cavs got a dynamic combo guard who can both shoot and set up their score-first point guard who, until recently, could shoot very well. Both teams whiffed by passing on Drummond, but both got a guy to complement their star.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Even though I wanted the Cavs to take Drummond at the time, I don't think you can say it was a mistake for them to take Waiters. Waiters has shown the ability to be the shooter and creator that this team desperately needs. While Drummond has the potential to be the best center in the league, he will never be an offensive machine, and a guy that shoots 20% at the line will kill you in the playoffs. I would love to have Drummond, and would have to say I would trade Waiters for Drummond if offered (he never would be), just because of how rare good bigs are anymore and how high his ceiling still is. But taking Waiters certainly wasn't a mistake.

 

[Tornicade]

Torn, you very artfully dodged his question. He's asking you specifically, would you swap Waiters for Drummond? It's a really straight-forward question and you're pulling a Clinton.

Going into Drummond's offensive qualities is somewhat irrelevant when he's getting you 13/13 on 65% and, as you've said, you don't run a single play for him. I really think you're missing the mark here, and I dunno why.

And saying Dumars was swinging for the fences making a desperation pick with Drummond doesn't seem like a fair or accurate statement. This would suggest Drummond wasn't BPA at the 9th position??

I dont do fantasy trade scenarios.

 

[gourimoko]

I dont do fantasy trade scenarios.

...Basically, you're refusing to answer the question. That's fine.

Is Waiters as it stands better than Drummond -- right now.

 

[gourimoko]

I mean, if the Wizards didn't blow it passing over Drummond for Beal, it's hard to say with a straight face that we did.

Why? Dion and Beal are two completely different players. Beal coming out of college looked like the second advent of Ray Allen, and he just might be. Dion Waiters isn't really comparable -- very different player.

Dion is shooting 41.9% from the floor to Beal's 40.7%.

Wait.. Why do you keep doing this..? No matter what Dion and Beal are doing, it's not what they were doing coming out of college.

Beal is slightly better from three at 43.9%, but Waiters is close at 41.2%, and both numbers are well above league average. Waiters has a better PER, 14.05 to 13.62, meaning he's slightly more efficient offensively. Beal's per game stats seem more eye-popping, but a lot of that is because he plays twelve more minutes per game than Dion does (40.2 to 28.5). If you compare their per-36 numbers, they're damn near identical. Dion also averages slightly more steals and blocks despite that minutes difference.

Without a doubt, they have similar production at this point (I'd rather have Beal) but.. what's that got to do with the draft?

Now if you want to argue that both teams screwed up, that's entirely fair.

Edit: And to be honest, I think both the Wizards and Cavs got the two-guard they needed most. The Wizards got a guy who isn't as dynamic but can shoot really well to pair with their pass-first point guard who can't shoot. The Cavs got a dynamic combo guard who can both shoot and set up their score-first point guard who, until recently, could shoot very well. Both teams whiffed by passing on Drummond, but both got a guy to complement their star.

This is a different point entirely, but I think we'd have been better off with Beal and I really wanted the Cavs to trade up to get him, but I don't fault Grant for not being able to pull off such a trade.

 

[Tornicade]

...Basically, you're refusing to answer the question. That's fine.

Is Waiters as it stands better than Drummond -- right now.

If your down by one with one play to go on either roster. Im putting Waiters on the court over drummond

 

[Spencer Hawes]

Why do we NEED Dion's skillset? If we NEEDED his skillset so bad, why is he coming off the bench when he was obviously drafted to play alongside Kyrie?

Wasn't TT suppose to develop into our "inside" presence? So now that he's stinking up the joint, it's "we don't need Drummond cause he can't create his own shot".

Don't bother getting Torn to answer anything. He's spouting so much BS that even he can't own up to it. Something _____ like to do.

 

[Tornicade]

Why? Dion and Beal are two completely different players. Beal coming out of college looked like the second advent of Ray Allen, and he just might be. Dion Waiters isn't really comparable -- very different player.



Wait.. Why do you keep doing this..? No matter what Dion and Beal are doing, it's not what they were doing coming out of college.



Without a doubt, they have similar production at this point (I'd rather have Beal) but.. what's that got to do with the draft?



This is a different point entirely, but I think we'd have been better off with Beal and I really wanted the Cavs to trade up to get him, but I don't fault Grant for not being able to pull off such a trade.

Beal and Waiters are the same position. they are absolutely comparable. also from the same draft. muchh more comparable than a center to a sg production comparisons.

Jacks wondering if you take Drummond over Beal. if so thats another GM who should be fired too by the board logic.

 

[gourimoko]

If your down by one with one play to go on either roster. Im putting Waiters on the court over drummond

You continue to refuse to acknowledge the question, so it's kinda obvious you don't even believe your aforementioned viewpoint.

I think just about everyone would take Drummond over Waiters if building a team, including you whether you want to say it or not, so I think that answers the question.

 

[gourimoko]

Beal and Waiters are the same position. they are absolutely comparable. also from the same draft. muchh more comparable than a center to a sg production comparisons.

My argument is not based on their statistical output, it's on style of play - which isn't comparable. They are different players. It's like comparing Ray Allen to Dwayne Wade, or Klay Thompson to James Harden - they have two qualitatively different methods of playing, and one may be better than another for a given team configuration.

To that end, saying that because two players share a position makes them "absolutely" comparable is kinda silly. You wouldn't compare Dennis Rodman with LaMarcus Aldridge. They're different players.

Jacks wondering if you take Drummond over Beal.

At the time of the draft, no. Right now, would I trade Beal for Drummond -- probably.

if so thats another GM who should be fired too by the board logic.

No it's not.

And the case against Grant doesn't begin and end with the selection of Dion Waiters.

 

[Tornicade]

You continue to refuse to acknowledge the question, so it's kinda obvious you don't even believe your aforementioned viewpoint.

I think just about everyone would take Drummond over Waiters if building a team, including you whether you want to say it or not, so I think that answers the question.

wait a minute .. wwas it whose better? who would you trade or who would you build around? those are all different questions.

Im on record befre the draft saying I wouldnt pick Drummond to goto the Cavs. I ahvent seen anything to change that. He has no post presence, no range and can be taken out of the game as an impact player by any prototypical frontrunner.

I wouldnt draft drummond unless i had a suitable roster or in a position to put together a oster that was capable of competing for the championship without him. Waiters on the other hand has the potential to give that team an extra nudge to be a contender.

I think Drummond is one of those players who come into the nba already at his peak. I dont see him getting much better than he is now.

 

[Tornicade]

My argument is not based on their statistical output, it's on style of play - which isn't comparable. They are different players. It's like comparing Ray Allen to Dwayne Wade, or Klay Thompson to James Harden - they have two qualitatively different methods of playing, and one may be better than another for a given team configuration.

To that end, saying that because two players share a position makes them "absolutely" comparable is kinda silly. You wouldn't compare Dennis Rodman with LaMarcus Aldridge. They're different players.



At the time of the draft, no. Right now, would I trade Beal for Drummond -- probably.



No it's not.

And the case against Grant doesn't begin and end with the selection of Dion Waiters.

Beal is used as a catch and shoot guard and Waiters is used as a driving guard. One has a point guard who is an elite distributor and the other has a point guard that an elite scorer. Beal would be catching and shooting less and driving more in celveland and Waiters would be doing the opposite in Washington.

You can certainly compare their effectiveness and contrasting is part of comparing. You cant argue in one line that drummond has more value as a center then dismiss a beal and waiters comparison because they play a different style so position doesnt matter.

but if your insistent then this argument applies to the Waiters Drummond comparison and it comes down to Drummond and Waiters cannot be compared any more than beal and drummond or beal and waiters.

 

[STAT]

wait a minute .. wwas it whose better? who would you trade or who would you build around? those are all different questions.

Im on record befre the draft saying I wouldnt pick Drummond to goto the Cavs. I ahvent seen anything to change that. He has no post presence, no range and can be taken out of the game as an impact player by any prototypical frontrunner.

I wouldnt draft drummond unless i had a suitable roster or in a position to put together a oster that was capable of competing for the championship without him. Waiters on the other hand has the potential to give that team an extra nudge to be a contender.

I think Drummond is one of those players who come into the nba already at his peak. I dont see him getting much better than he is now.

Normally, I like seeing contrasting viewpoints and especially how staunchly you hold your positions.

But now, I think you should stop.

 

[gourimoko]

wait a minute .. wwas it whose better? who would you trade or who would you build around? those are all different questions.

Im on record befre the draft saying I wouldnt pick Drummond to goto the Cavs. I ahvent seen anything to change that. He has no post presence, no range and can be taken out of the game as an impact player by any prototypical frontrunner.

Then I don't think you really appreciate what the kid brings to the table and the potential he has. Really enough said. I'm not going to convince you that Drummond has a shot at being a top talent, and I'm not going to try.

I wouldnt draft drummond unless i had a suitable roster or in a position to put together a oster that was capable of competing for the championship without him. Waiters on the other hand has the potential to give that team an extra nudge to be a contender.

Logically this means that Drummond does not have the "potential" to contribute an "extra nudge" to make a team a contender. Unless you think he's already peaked...

I think Drummond is one of those players who come into the nba already at his peak. I dont see him getting much better than he is now.

Based on what?