The Case for 2009 LeBron As the GOAT Peak

[Walter White]

Tough to say...but that Orlando series is probably the greatest performance in a series by a losing player.

Um... the last Finals though?

And I actually think LeBron is peaking right now. Maybe not his athletic peak, but overall game and mentally.

 

[All4One1ForAll]

I don't buy it at all that '91 was Jordan's greatest peak. Nope. He evolved into a better all around player, one that was willing to share the load more.

Jordan was a one-man wrecking crew, that put absolutely absurd numbers, doing it very efficiently before..

I don't even think '09 was 'Bron's peak year.

Also, why does Wilt also get left out of the discussion when it comes to dominant players?

Do people really buy the myth, he just brutalized smaller guys? I get the game was different, and he'd never average 50 a game in today's league.

But he was a freak of nature. At 35 years old, he could go toe-to-toe, against a very young and great Kareem. The guy once got 55 boards against Russell.

I just think he gets disrespected too much, because he played in a different era, like it was completely meaningless or something.

I'm curious which season you would pick as Jordan's best season if not 1991? You could argue he evolved into a more complete, overall player later into his career, but I think that applies mostly to his scoring arsenal, which became more well rounded. I find his 1991 season, besides his statistical impact being his highest in both the regular season and the postseason, to be the perfect blend of his athleticism and skill. Though he became a more versatile scorer later on, his athleticism declined, which sort of offset that.

I'm also interested in what year you believe is LeBron's greatest (I'm guessing 2013). I think in general people refrain from putting seasons in which a player didn't win a championship as that player's greatest year, but in this case, LeBron was simply more spectacular on an individual level as he's ever been (regular season and postseason), and it doesn't really make sense to me to ignore context and pretend that teammates don't come into play. Was he really a more well rounded and impactful player in his later years? Or did he just get a better roster around him? LeBron became a better shooter and a better post up player in Miami, but I would argue that 2009 LeBron's relentless driving/finishing ability and insane perimeter defense (which is even more incredible considering his offensive workload) made him a slightly more effective player in 2009 than in 2013.

And finally I have no problem including Wilt in the discussion. Don't take me not mentioning his name in my post as a sign that I don't recognize how great he was. And though the inferior competition does take away from Wilt's case slightly (I'm not sure how one can even argue against that point), it doesn't force me to dismiss his case entirely. Personally, I think peak Wilt is at worst a top 7 peak of all time, however, I just can't put him above guys like LeBron, Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem at their respective peaks. You also have to consider that Wilt's performance generally declined considerable come postseason time.

 

[godfather]

I might be in minority, but I think Jordan was his best when he came back from baseball. I know his stats won't back it up, and he was obviously older.

But he became a deadly, awesome, back to the basket, mid-range player, the best I've ever seen. Kobe clearly copied Jordan's game in that aspect. If he says he didn't, he's a liar.

Kobe expanded his range more, and had greater range. But Jordan as the back to the basket player, was fucking frightening. He was just trolling the league how good he was at that point.

There was just no way, to possibly even guard him that way. What could you do. He faded away on you, you couldn't elevate height on him to contest the shot well. If you put someone bigger, he'd go around you.

Back to the discussion, you're a good poster All4One, I enjoy your posts a lot.

But I have to disagree, completely, if you think LeBron in '09 was better than Jordan in '91. Stats might suggest it, numbers could tell you a lot of things. As Rob said, I agree, that Orlando series was one of the best individual series I've ever seen from a player.

Here's why I don't think he was as good as Jordan, then at least. I don't even think he was as good as Kobe Bryant yet. As a talent? He was already better than Kobe. LB was always destine to be better than Kobe, whether Kobe fans like that or not, sorry, no disrespect to the 'Mamba, but his talent was just better.

LeBron still didn't quite get how to play the game like it needed. Some of that was our fault, some of it was just bad coaching, or no one he'd listen to.

LeBron still needed to learn how to get higher percentage shots. He still needed to learn how to really play in the post. His game still needed to evolve.

All great players go through that, Jordan had to go through an evolving process, which meant learning to share, and trust, and play off others at times too.

Jordan already was in his 'Miami' phase at that point. LeBron wasn't. Yes, he put up great numbers, because there's no denying he was already a great player. And a tremendous talent, no doubt about it.

Jordan averaged 32, 8 and 8 one season, these are ridiculous numbers very talented guys like them are capable of putting up.

I think numbers just don't always tell the story. I get they're important, they matter, but there are a lot of different scenarios that contribute to them.

 

[Stark]

Wilt would make every big man in the game today his bitch.

 

[CavsHomer]

Pretty sure LeBron's physical peak was the 2012-2013 season.

This.

I remember watching lots of highlights from his games that season.
There was a streak where he shot like 65% for at least 2 consecutive months. Some crazy stuff...

 

[All4One1ForAll]

p.s.
Just for reference, did you watch Jordan play? I often find that there is a remarkable difference among opinions depending upon whether one actually watched Michael Jordan (or LeBron for that matter) versus those who didn't.

I'm only 19 (preparing myself for all the anti-age backlash), so I didn't get to watch Jordan play during the 90s. However, I love basketball and I love the NBA, so the wonders of the Internet have allowed me to watch more full late 80s/90s Bulls games than I bet 99% of older NBA fanatics actually watched of Jordan. Specifically, I've seen over half of the playoff Bulls game between 1991 and 1993, along with those between 1995 and 1998. So I'd say I'm pretty familiar with Jordan and just how great he was. Please don't take me putting Jordan as second in something (in this case, single-season peaks) as a sign that I'm just some LeBron nuthugger who never saw Jordan play outside of YouTube highlights. I'm happy to admit that as far as total careers/achievements/legacies go, no one is currently touching Michael. But like I said, in terms of single-season peaks, I'm taking LeBron due to his greater all-around impact and sheer dominance.

 

[Ohio]

Um... the last Finals though?

No way. Look at the numbers. He was significantly more efficient against Orlando.

 

[godfather]

Nothing wrong if you never watched him play, and want to make the argument.

LeBron is in the Jordan category, I don't think anyone can deny that. It's hard to say compare them when both careers have yet to finish. If 'Bron ends up with no more titles (he better no!), then it's going to be hard to say he's better than Jordan.

I don't like using the ring analogy, because its get's overrated a bit, but Jordan did win 6. That's a lot more than 2.

I've never seen Wilt play for example, but I like to be a student of the sport. I think it's a toss up between him and Kareem as the greatest centers of all-time.

Wilt Chamberlain, at 35 years old, was able to block one of his sky hooks. Kareem was 7-2, with a ridiculous wing span, and Wilt was able to get up and still block one of those shots.

That's freakish LeBron James like athleticism, in a 7-1 body we're talking about.

Awesome video of Kareem and Wilt just going at it. The death stare Wilt gives him is classic. Shit, I would have loved to see these two play live.

 

[gourimoko]

Lets go through it shall we?

Furthermore, I realize championships are infinitely valued today, and unfortunately LeBron's season didn't end in one (though I won't fault him for that).

Which is one of the reasons your argument doesn't work for me.

All I'm trying to say is that I believe LeBron at his peak (in this case I'm using one whole season each as a reference for both LBJ and MJ because it's the easiest means of comparison and I also find it to be an accurate representation of players at their best) was a better overall player than any other player in NBA history, including Michael.

But when you include RAPM/RPM you're not including one season but many seasons including predicting the next upcoming season. You can't use these stats (including win shares and VORP) out of context, and that's one of the points I was making earlier.

Sure, it's hard to compare players across eras, but just by comparing their respective statistical impacts and their skillets, in which I would take LeBron's superior facilitating, rebounding, and defense over Jordan's superior scoring ability, I think he was a more dominant, impactful player than Michael at his peak.

I'm not sure if I would argue that there was as a substantial difference in the areas you're referencing as being LeBron's strengths. For example, it seems you're arguing that James was somehow in another tier defensively than Jordan - but that's false. They were both elite defenders, in fact, I might argue that Jordan was a better defender overall on the perimeter for numerous reasons. We're talking about someone who averaged nearly 3 steals a game for over a decade of play. That is astounding.

Regarding rebounding, again the difference isn't quite as distinguishable as your argument seems to suggest. I mean, we're literally talking about 1 extra rebound for James. That's not a significant different I think.

Your argument with regarding "facilitating" I think is flawed in that nowhere in your posts do you reference Scottie Pippen, BJ Armstrong or John Paxson. Again, missing context. Jordan played alongside all three, who were capable facilitators and point-guards/forwards yet still had the second most assists on the team, even when his job was to score and defend.

I'm not saying James isn't a better facilitator than Jordan, as I think that's a difficult question to conclusively answer one way or another. I am saying though that James' game is more modeled after Magic Johnson than Jordan, and in that, he often looks to pass rather than to shoot, so yes, he'd likely get his teammates involved somewhat more than Jordan. But, I think the point is that the difference here is far more subtle than your argument would make it seem.

With respect to scoring, Jordan's ability to score the ball was simply unreal and is in another tier than James. Yes, 1991 stands out overall for numerous reasons, but Jordan actually took his foot off the pedal that year. In that season averaged over the previous 5, Jordan scored at a 34 PPG clip on a .525 FG%. That is fucking insane. While James is an elite scorer for his era, that's not his game, and he had far fewer tools to score during his first Cleveland stint than Jordan had in his first championship run. This is where I think we do see some substantial space between these two players and Jordan truly stands out from the crowd.

That's why I don't see your argument. Because while James might be a marginally better facilitator, his defense and rebounding aren't really that much better or worse than Jordan's either way; however, Jordan's ability to score, at will, and massively, allowed him to win six virtually consecutive championships.

This isn't a comparison of careers or achievements. This is simply a discussion of who you would take at his absolute best: LeBron, whom I personally believe was at his highest peak in 2009, or Jordan, whose peak was most likely in 1991. Of course, there are other options like 2000 Shaq, but I believe most people would choose either LeBron or Jordan.

I think it's really an exercise in futility. I don't think you can look at a single year and say - this was Jordan or James at their peak. These guys might decline in scoring and improve defensively, or improve their efficiency will playing less on the other end of the ball to reserve energy. It's just too fluid a game for this type of analysis. You're assuming that Jordan's peak scoring ability was 31 PPG (1991) which is somewhat of a ridiculous position because that was actually a significant dip for him; he had scored more and at high efficiency in both prior and future seasons. It's just not a rational way to make an assessment.

Essentially what you're doing is grabbing one season, out of context of the rest, and trying to make an assessment without any other actually useful data.

Instead what you should do is extrapolate their likely peak performance based on some statistical model. Determine if that model agrees with observational data and analysis, and then use that as a metric for their respective "peaks."

But simply plucking a season out of over a dozen seasons and saying, this one in this era vs this one in another, on different teams, essentially against different competition (SOS), and with substantially different rules; I don't get how you can come to a rational conclusion.

Also, despite the often used argument that the NBA was tougher and more talented back in the 90s, which would benefit Jordan's case, I find this to be very far from the truth.

What? It's practically universally accepted that it was harder for perimeter players to score in the 90s versus today.

The NBA was in the midst of league expansion during the late 80s/early 90s with teams like the Magic, the Hornets, the Timberwolves, and the Heat coming onto the scene, meaning every team had to give up a certain number of players, leading to what could be considering a "watering down" effect.

What does this have to do with the rule/officiating changes, the influence of the 3-point shot, hand-checking, zone defenses, the permitting of physical defensive play, etc?

The styles of basketball are completely different.

Furthermore, with the greater global marketing of basketball in recent years, the NBA has accessed a much greater degree of talent than that which was available a couple decades ago.

This has nothing to do with the argument at hand unless you're saying some international player made a significant difference in Jordan or James peak seasons.

On opening day this season, 101 international players were present on an NBA roster. That number was about 20 just a couple decades ago.

So what?

Overall, this is just my opinion, and I'm trying to compare them as fairly and accurately as I can, which is difficult, seeing that they played in different time periods and the circumstances are different. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for picking Jordan, but personally I just think LeBron was more dominant/impactful in 2009 than any player in any single season in NBA history, despite the fact that it didn't end with a title.

But it seems like instead of approaching this question critically, it seems like you're trying to rationalize a preconceived notion.

You've discounted the substantial difference in scoring that Jordan produces, you've discounted the fact that Jordan is a substantially scorer, better shooter, better free throw shooter, and is a superior ball-handler. From the box score, you've attempted to argue that +1.7 assists, and +1.6 rebounds is somehow conclusively better than -0.5 TOV, +1.0 STL, and +3.1 PPG, wherein from some fairly agreed upon standards (see Basketball Prospectus), we'd likely conclude these differences to be marginal at best, with a slim advantage to Jordan if anything.

If one is to take anything away from this comparison, I think I'd like people to realize just how close LeBron and Jordan are/were as players (again, not comparing their overall careers). Oftentimes, I think LeBron gets disrespected due to his Finals record and such, when most of the time he's played spectacularly. How would LeBron have fared if he were on those early 90s Bulls teams with Scottie Pippen as his Robin and Phil Jackson as his coach? What about if Jordan spent the first 7 years of his career struggling to carry terrible Cleveland rosters to a title? Unfortunately, we can't know. But I think LeBron's one of those guys people will learn to appreciate more after his basketball career is over because there will truly never be another player quite like him, and who knows? With another half-decade or so of elite play and a few more championships, maybe LeBron does go down as the Greatest of All Time.

I don't really want to get into this as much because I think it's too subjective. It's really a matter of opinion when we're talking about respect, disrespect, etc etc..

I think the problem most people would have with your argument, myself included, is that you've essentially discounted all of Jordan's strengths, while disregarding James' glaring weaknesses.

Jordan didn't need to team up with Magic and Bird, Jordan didn't need to "grow up" in the middle of his NBA career to learn to play ball; Jordan Pippen made Scottie into what he ultimately became, not the other way around. Jordan went the NBA Finals and won, six times.

The list goes on and on. And again, this comes back to the definition of peak season, and I highly doubt if you ask James he'd agree with 2008-09 being his best season. Nor do I think it's fair to look at Jordan's peak scoring by looking solely at the 1990-91 season. I don't think you're using the data necessary to answer your question.

Simply put, you might be right, you might be wrong; I just don't see enough evidence to come to the same conclusion as you. And yes, I have an opinion, and yes, it's different from yours - but I don't think the question can be posed as simply as you're attempting to frame it.

 

[gourimoko]

I'm only 19 (preparing myself for all the anti-age backlash), so I didn't get to watch Jordan play during the 90s. However, I love basketball and I love the NBA, so the wonders of the Internet have allowed me to watch more full late 80s/90s Bulls games than I bet 99% of older NBA fanatics actually watched of Jordan. Specifically, I've seen over half of the playoff Bulls game between 1991 and 1993, along with those between 1995 and 1998. So I'd say I'm pretty familiar with Jordan and just how great he was.

Wait so you're saying you've watched hundreds of full Bulls games from the 1990s? How?

Please don't take me putting Jordan as second in something (in this case, single-season peaks) as a sign that I'm just some LeBron nuthugger who never saw Jordan play outside of YouTube highlights. I'm happy to admit that as far as total careers/achievements/legacies go, no one is currently touching Michael. But like I said, in terms of single-season peaks, I'm taking LeBron due to his greater all-around impact and sheer dominance.

Where did I call you a LeBron "nuthugger?"

I'm just trying to understand how you've measured Michael Jordan's performance and you're saying you did so observationally, by watching the games. So I'm curious as to how you did that especially now that you're saying you are 19 years old and "have watched half of the games" of Jordan's championship runs.

I would've thought that you watched a few games, highlight reels, and some selected moments from the past; but to have watched hundreds of games from the 1990s? I didn't even know that was possible.

 

[godfather]

No question Jordan was a better scorer, not even close to be honest. It really isn't.

His 31 points per game that year, was a back slide. We're talking 31 fucking points a game! He could average that in his sleep then.

 

[Gus Zing]

No its not the GOAT. But still some great stuff from LeBron.


He was at his athletic peak in 2009

He was at his best basketball peak in 2012.

He was probably the most dominant (non big man) player without a reliable jump shot in NBA history these playoffs.

25/11/8 vs. the Bulls
30/11/9 vs. the Hawks
36/13/9 vs. the Warriors

If LeBron didnt have Damon Jones..err...I mean his jumpshot problems this year it would have been the greatest accomplishment of his career.

 

[gourimoko]

No question Jordan was a better scorer, not even close to be honest. It really isn't.

His 31 points per game that year, was a back slide. We're talking 31 fucking points a game! He could average that in his sleep then.

Simply put, there isn't much separation from LeBron and Jordan with respect to most facets of the game. Defense, no, definitely not. Facilitating? Sure, I'd give the advantage to James. But scoring, Jordan is far and away a better scorer, a better shooter, and much more clutch.

I don't think many GMs or coaches (definitely not coaches) would take James over Jordan in their primes. I also think if your team already has a point guard, then it's a no-brainer as to who you should pick. If you don't plan on playing a traditional point guard, then you might pick James and have him run the point, but you'd need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of such a decision - so again, it's really not a simple question.

 

[godfather]

Simply put, there isn't much separation from LeBron and Jordan with respect to most facets of the game. Defense, no, definitely not. Facilitating? Sure, I'd give the advantage to James. But scoring, Jordan is far and away a better scorer, a better shooter, and much more clutch.

I don't think many GMs or coaches (definitely not coaches) would take James over Jordan in their primes. I also think if your team already has a point guard, then it's a no-brainer as to who you should pick. If you don't plan on playing a traditional point guard, then you might pick James and have him run the point, but you'd need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of such a decision - so again, it's really not a simple question.

I don't think so either.

Sometimes I think Jordan gets a bad, mislabeled rep of being a chucker or something because he averaged so many points a game. Like, if you give so and so that many shots, or whatever, they could too, when people try to make an argument against him.

Those people either A.) hate him, and a lot of people do. He could be kind of a dick, there's not denying that. or B.) they never saw him play.

He's not 'Melo, where he chucked up shots, just to try to average a high margin of points.

To limit Jordan under 30, would being stripping away so much of what he can do as a scorer. We're talking about a 6'6 guard, that dominated as an offensive scorer like he was a center.

He did at a very efficient clip, too. He average 35 a game, while shooting 53%! That is center production when it comes to efficiency, and he's a guard!

Jordan averaging just 30 a game, when he was in his physical peak is a backslide.


Some people don't think he was a good outside shooter, I don't really buy it. I don't think he ever felt the need to really develop that part of his game.

If he played today, I think he would have developed a 3 point shot, given the change of roles, and how players now get more air space today.

And if he did who knows how much he would averaged now. Which is pretty frightening too.

 

[gourimoko]

Some people don't think he was a good outside shooter, I don't really buy it. I don't think he ever felt the need to really develop that part of his game.

If he played today, I think he would have developed a 3 point shot, given the change of roles, and how players now get more air space today.

And if he did who knows how much he would averaged now. Which is pretty frightening too.

Agreed. This is one of the points I was making up-thread. There is a substantial difference between the NBA then and now, and three point shooting was not as important or necessary then as it was today. I mean, Phil Jackson's recent demonstrative ignorance with respect to 3-pt shooting should illustrate the point.

Threes just weren't as integral to the game then as they are today for numerous reasons.