The Cavs vs Bulls Series

[Kizzle]

alright well i think your a lost cause any way so im going to bother. we'll just see how the season plays out

Im asking real questions based off what iv seen outta Rose in FIBA and past history. I don't see how I'm a lost cause. Lol

If Chicago gets MVP Rose, I'll give them a good chance to beat us in a series, but Rose isn't 100% right now so saying the bulls will be the better team to me is weird. Just my opinion. I'm not saying yours is trash

 

[upper lip]

this just kind of proved my point... thanks..

Im asking real questions based off what iv seen outta Rose in FIBA and past history. I don't see how I'm a lost cause. Lol

If Chicago gets MVP Rose, I'll give them a good chance to beat us in a series, but Rose isn't 100% right now so saying the bulls will be the better team to me is weird. Just my opinion. I'm not saying yours is trash

im not saying they WILL beat us in the playoffs.. just that i wont go into a series vs the bulls assuming we're going to win..

 

[iamacavalier]

and you completely missed my point. you cant just compare teams by comparing individual players by face value. its just a flat out STUPID thing to go by. the bulls will probably be the best team in the east this year.. atleast until the cavs get clicking

He did not just compare individual players. He said They do not have shot creators off the dribble outside of Rose. Then you said look at the Mavericks team. Well you proved his point. The Mavericks had Kidd, Terry, Berea, and shawn marion. Who can all create off the dribble and make things happen. What he said is who (other than rose) can create on their team. A team has to have shot creators. Even the spurs (One of the best passing teams in NBA history) need shot creators. They have 1. parker 2. Ginoboli 3. Leonard 4. Patty Mills.

The bulls do have Hinrick but he is way more of a 3 & D specialist. Even when the bulls put up their fight in 2011 when rose was still rose. They had C.J. Watson, Deng, and brewer. Who could all create off the dribble if they needed to. Right now they have Rose to create off the dribble and thats it.

 

[Scholar]

no, you cant do that. you cant just go individually grading a team by players face value.. you have to look how the team actually performs. if it were that easy, on paper the heat would have murdered the mavericks in the 2011 finals. just look at how good the bulls looked last year, now add derrick rose, pau gasol, nikola mirotic, doug mcdermott, aaron brooks, and cameron bairstow to the equation. i wont be surprised at all if the bulls take the 1 seed and take us down this year.

Let's see, you mention 3 rookies, a pg who has basically missed the last two seasons with multiple knee surgeries, a 34 year old pf/c who has been fragile of late, and a journeyman PG. Thibs definitely has a great defensive system in place. Though, it will take time to integrate the new players. But, Thibs also has a horrible time management system in place. I think it will be a race to see whether Gasol or Rose gets injured first.

Btw, if you want to actually stick around here, I'd suggest that you stop referring to comments that you disagree with as dumb and ignorant. Just stick to logically defending your opinions without resorting to "labeling" comments from others.

 

[upper lip]

He did not just compare individual players. He said They do not have shot creators off the dribble outside of Rose. Then you said look at the Mavericks team. Well you proved his point. The Mavericks had Kidd, Terry, Berea, and shawn marion. Who can all create off the dribble and make things happen. What he said is who (other than rose) can create on their team. A team has to have shot creators. Even the spurs (One of the best passing teams in NBA history) need shot creators. They have 1. parker 2. Ginoboli 3. Leonard 4. Patty Mills.

The bulls do have Hinrick but he is way more of a 3 & D specialist. Even when the bulls put up their fight in 2011 when rose was still rose. They had C.J. Watson, Deng, and brewer. Who could all create off the dribble if they needed to. Right now they have Rose to create off the dribble and thats it.

ok, well first off, ronnie brewer and luol deng are horrible HORRIBLE examples to use there. they're a couple of the worst wing players in the league as far as creating off the dribble. and not only that, but brewer is still on the team i think. and not that it means anything, because it really doesnt, but they have aaron brooks now who is better than any player they've had in the recent past as far as that goes..not to mention doug mdcermott who i think people are really sleeping on. and tony snell.. snell and mcdermott are multiple times better at taking the d off the dribble than deng and brewer.. but like i said, all this is just pointless because the fact is that the way the team in built up it really doesnt matter if they have any guys that dominte allen iverson style, especially if they have rose at 80+%

 

[Kizzle]

I really didn't want to say it because it's a bold statement but I need some good convo on CHI VS WAS, TOR, ATL, BKN, MIA, and CHA. Washington killed CHI in 5 last year and don't even tell me Rose and Gasol fix that immediately. Those 2 players do absolutely make it a close series tho. Think a lot of people forget that BRK beat TOR also, so let not act like BRK doesn't exist. They also get Lopez back this year so that could flip the middle of the east some also. ATL probably has one more year of respectability or at least until Horford leaves.

I'm biased as hell I'll admit it but I seriously believe the East will be us and then the rest battling for seeds 2-8. I base that on not 100% Rose and no Paul George. If Rose looks like he's adapting his game and is still MVP CALIBUR I will say it's us and Bulls and then the rest of the east but as of right now, I think we should comfortably lock up the East fairly early based off consistent play along.



And it also doesn't hurt to have LeBron


That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. The nba hasn't seen a team so balanced in age and talent for a while. What's scarier is I'm only going by raw talent when I say this stuff. I'm not even taking into account any chemistry these players build with each other. Or game adaptations that they'll make.

 

[amil99]

2014 Dion Waiters is better than 2014 Derrick Rose

 

[iamacavalier]

ok, well first off, ronnie brewer and luol deng are horrible HORRIBLE examples to use there. they're a couple of the worst wing players in the league as far as creating off the dribble. and not only that, but brewer is still on the team i think. and not that it means anything, because it really doesnt, but they have aaron brooks now who is better than any player they've had in the recent past as far as that goes..not to mention doug mdcermott who i think people are really sleeping on. and tony snell.. snell and mcdermott are multiple times better at taking the d off the dribble than deng and brewer.. but like i said, all this is just pointless because the fact is that the way the team in built up it really doesnt matter if they have any guys that dominte allen iverson style, especially if they have rose at 80+%

I don't recall anyone saying you have to have guys dominate the ball "allen Iverson style." What was said you have to have people who can initiate the offense and get points on the board if you need them and create for others. They have rose and thats it. Brooks sucks. thats why he only played 20 minutes last year for denver and he pretty much shoots 3s.

Again I'm not saying you have to have ball dominance the whole game but you have to have guards/forwards that can go to work and put points on the board with their ball handling when they need to. They don't have that. Cavaliers have 3 players that can do that. There is a reason the bulls havent made it out of the east even though they have had great players and one of the best defenses in the nba. In the playoffs you need a go to guards/forwards. They don't have that.


I am not saying the bulls are a push over team or that we couldn't lose to them. But don't say someone's point isnt valid when it obviously is valid. This isnt the wait till season starts thread its the talk about the Cavs vs bulls teams NOW thread.

btw... Name a team that has won a championship that hasnt had several players that can put the ball on the floor and create their own shots/shots for others off the dribble...

 

[CavsHomer]

2014 Dion Waiters is better than 2014 Derrick Rose

So far this year, he's been miles better...

 

[bobcat22]

I don't recall anyone saying you have to have guys dominate the ball "allen Iverson style." What was said you have to have people who can initiate the offense and get points on the board if you need them and create for others. They have rose and thats it. Brooks sucks. thats why he only played 20 minutes last year for denver and he pretty much shoots 3s.

Again I'm not saying you have to have ball dominance the whole game but you have to have guards/forwards that can go to work and put points on the board with their ball handling when they need to. They don't have that. Cavaliers have 3 players that can do that. There is a reason the bulls havent made it out of the east even though they have had great players and one of the best defenses in the nba. In the playoffs you need a go to guards/forwards. They don't have that.


I am not saying the bulls are a push over team or that we couldn't lose to them. But don't say someone's point isnt valid when it obviously is valid. This isnt the wait till season starts thread its the talk about the Cavs vs bulls teams NOW thread.

btw... Name a team that has won a championship that hasnt had several players that can put the ball on the floor and create their own shots/shots for others off the dribble...

Kobe's Lakers.

 

[upper lip]

I don't recall anyone saying you have to have guys dominate the ball "allen Iverson style." What was said you have to have people who can initiate the offense and get points on the board if you need them and create for others. They have rose and thats it. Brooks sucks. thats why he only played 20 minutes last year for denver and he pretty much shoots 3s.

Again I'm not saying you have to have ball dominance the whole game but you have to have guards/forwards that can go to work and put points on the board with their ball handling when they need to. They don't have that. Cavaliers have 3 players that can do that. There is a reason the bulls havent made it out of the east even though they have had great players and one of the best defenses in the nba. In the playoffs you need a go to guards/forwards. They don't have that.


I am not saying the bulls are a push over team or that we couldn't lose to them. But don't say someone's point isnt valid when it obviously is valid. This isnt the wait till season starts thread its the talk about the Cavs vs bulls teams NOW thread.

btw... Name a team that has won a championship that hasnt had several players that can put the ball on the floor and create their own shots/shots for others off the dribble...

well, for starters, the lakers didnt have anyone better than aaron brookes, kirk hinrich, and doug mcdermott... derek fisher? uh, no.. ron artest? nuh uh..

you can throw it into the post and have pau create, noah can create exceptionally well wiht the ball in his hands.. lets not forget about nikola mirotic. if theres one thing aaron brroks can do, its handle the rock and blow by and weave through defenders. kirk hinrich can run an offense and put up 20 points on a good night. lets not act like jimm butler is some scrub either.. i jus think its a dumb arguement. the bulls dont need anything else. theyre a championship team as is. anything else would just be added luxury

 

[Mdog1]

Bosh's decline was much, much more about him being the third wheel with LeBron in town. Now, he is going to be the first option, and I fully expect him to put up his best numbers since he joined the Heat.

Couldn't you say that any team has to stay healthy just to advance to the playoffs? I figured that went without saying.

That's an opinion for sure. Maybe, just like Pau he actually just has been losing it. He had the worst year of his career in every category, outside of %'s, except his rookie year last year. This is despite the fact that Wade played the least amount of games that he did Bosh's entire Miami stint. He was for all intents and purposes the second option last season, not third, and he still shit the bed.

Not to mention the Heat were a horrible rebounding team WITH LeBron. With LeBron their talent could overcome the lack of rebounding, without him they are a below average talent team.

Bosh is not a number one option, and Wade won't play enough games to be. That team should have just rebuilt.

 

[iamacavalier]

Why was Shannon Brown in the game? To create and score points. Remember even you said you can't look at one player and judge the team by them. Its how it works in the system.Kobe, fisher, and Shannon Brown could create off the dribble for themselves and others. Were they better than those players not necessarily; but they played their roles perfectly. Also Lamar Odom was so effective at that time because he could take other slower PF off the dribble from the 3 point line. Again I'm not blowing off the bulls and saying they are nothing to worry about. Because clearly they will be THE team to watch out for. Hence the thread, I am just saying you can't dismiss someone's comments as a dumb non-issue just because you don't agree.

 

[amil99]

Kobe's Lakers.

Lamar Odom caused havoc as a point forward. He wasnt a great player/shot creater but having a 6'10 ballhandling pf was a luxury. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers didnt need a second ballhandler because of the triangle and the fact that Shaq was a walking 2 points down the court.

 

[Pioneer10]

Aaron Brooks career PER is 13.7 and last year 12.5. His last good season was 4 years ago.
Hinrich's PER has been 10.8 the last 2 years in CHI.
Snell's PER was 8-9 last year
Butler was 13.7
Dunleavy was 12.6

That's an average PER of close to 11 for their group! PER is a limited statistic but it is a decent raw measure of offensive output and this is bad.

I get that people are enamored with Chicago's frontcourt and they have a chance to be real good and we're vulnerable if AV goes down but there are problems even here
-Gasol playing great in the summer always happen: he's 34 and as a Cavs fans I'm thrilled he's doing well. The more games on those old legs the less chance he'll be productive in the playoffs. He's tended to get worn down the last few years and this is one the reasons the Lakers have been willing to trade him for years (His playoff PER has only been 17 in the last 3 times the Lakers were in the playoffs which is considerably lower then his career regular season PER)
-They are expecting a lot from Mirotic and McDermott. I think these guys have a chance to be good but it's rare for future Euro stars and this includes guys like Ginobili and Dirk to kill it the first year around. It usually takes them 1-2 years to acclimate.
-The assumption is Love is done getting better: he played better defense last year and as he's entering his prime and now playing with Lebron unlike a guy like Bosh, there is a good chance that Love is not done improving. At his best this guy is starting to look like Dirk with that jumpshot of his.

So I'm willing to concede the Bulls frontcourt is probably but not anywhere close to certainly be better then ours particularly when you consider depth but with a healthy Love, I just don't see how the gap is anywhere large enough to make up our dominance on the perimeter. This isn't SAS who can bring out Parker, Green, Ginobili, and Leonard but a Bulls team that is going to be dependent on a bunch of guys who put out below average offensive output and post-injury Rose to keep up with Lebron, Irving, Waiters, Marion, Miller, and Delly. There is huge gap in perimeter talent here and if anything I'm underselling it (i.e. Rose hasn't looked good and I'm confident Waiters and Delly are going to be significantly better next year)