The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[kosis]

Preview for a 30 minute, behind the scenes feature on Feb. 8th:



Obara vs. Jaime?

Jon still killing wildlings?

 

[Chris]

It should be noted that in the books, Ned was smart enough to not want to go to KL in the first place once Bran was hurt and they received Lysa's letter claiming that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn. He knew it would be incredibly dangerous and that he would lack true allies. Catelyn talked him into it, a scene that was reversed in the show.

But once he was there, his options were more limited. If Ned was the type who doesn't mind seeing children murdered, then there are a lot of things he could have done differently. But most of those other options came back to the reality that Tommen, Myrcella, and Joffrey would have been killed, and Ned wasn't willing to do that.

And I think he believed that Renly's plan would have resulted in a war anyway, especially since Robert was still alive (though barely) and Ned had not yet been named Regent.

Exactly. This is my point.

He didn't do all these things out of "stupidity." He wasn't like "Durrr, I'm gonna tell Cersei, durrrr this should turn out great!" He did so out of sense of honor. He knew it was dangerous but he absolutely REFUSED to compromise his values and condemn innocent children to die just so he could win.

I think there is a scene with him and Varys in the jail cells, in the show, where he makes a comment something like, "You think my life is so precious and important to me that I would sacrifice my honor" or something.

Sums up Ned very well.

edit: Of course, at the end he finally does compromise his honor but does so not to save himself but for Sansa. It proves to be too late for him though. Because, Joffrey.

 

[Chris]

Preview for a 30 minute, behind the scenes feature on Feb. 8th:



Obara vs. Jaime?

Jon still killing wildlings?

Yea, the show is about to go full retard pretty much, which I've expected and accepted. I'm going to try and just enjoy it as a separate entity from the books. I've also accepted that they will finish the show before the books, and surpass them as early as this season, barring some kind of miracle.

 

[Jack Brickman]

Yea, the show is about to go full retard pretty much, which I've expected and accepted. I'm going to try and just enjoy it as a separate entity from the books. I've also accepted that they will finish the show before the books, and surpass them as early as this season, barring some kind of miracle.

I still can't really fathom how a guy who gets paid to write for a living is just so unproductive at his trade. Meanwhile, other fantasy heavy-hitters like Abercrombie, Hobb, Abraham, and Sanderson are able to pump out a book a year. Hell, Sanderson has averaged two books a year for the past decade, which is just insane, and Abercrombie got bored during a writing sabbatical and decided to write a young adult trilogy.

If Martin had a quarter of the work ethic of Sanderson, his series would be finished by now.

 

[Chris]

I still can't really fathom how a guy who gets paid to write for a living is just so unproductive at his trade. Meanwhile, other fantasy heavy-hitters like Abercrombie, Hobb, Abraham, and Sanderson are able to pump out a book a year. Hell, Sanderson has averaged two books a year for the past decade, which is just insane, and Abercrombie got bored during a writing sabbatical and decided to write a young adult trilogy.

If Martin had a quarter of the work ethic of Sanderson, his series would be finished by now.

I don't want to to assume anything, but if I had to guess I'd definitely say it's the ridiculous fame that has enveloped him. All his appearances and interviews and other shit going on has distracted him immensely. He also seems insanely obsessed with the NFL to the point where he doesn't write during NFL season (which might be the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time if true).

We're in 2015 now, and seriously by all counts TWOW seems to not even be anywhere in sight, not even on the horizon. Seems like there is a very minute chance it is released this year. That means that we will be on Season 6 by the time that fucking book comes out. At the earliest! Boggles my mind.

 

[Jack Brickman]

I don't want to to assume anything, but if I had to guess I'd definitely say it's the ridiculous fame that has enveloped him. All his appearances and interviews and other shit going on has distracted him immensely. He also seems insanely obsessed with the NFL to the point where he doesn't write during NFL season (which might be the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a long time if true).

We're in 2015 now, and seriously by all counts TWOW seems to not even be anywhere in sight, not even on the horizon. Seems like there is a very minute chance it is released this year. That means that we will be on Season 6 by the time that fucking book comes out. At the earliest! Boggles my mind.

Oh, it almost certainly has to do with all of his appearances, interviews, editing work, and time spent writing for the show and various other Thrones-related novellas. He just doesn't really seem to have any sense of how to manage his time properly, or how to focus the bulk of his efforts on the more important projects (like finishing his fucking masterpiece).

I also think part of his problem is that he tends to get too detailed when he writes. He doesn't know how to edit himself, and as a result a lot of his scenes tend to go on longer than they need to and include an obnoxious amount of unnecessary details. This makes his world deeper and more realized than the average fantasy author, but it also means he spends entirely too much time focusing on the small stuff instead of thinking big picture. I think Dance was the perfect example of this. There was quite a bit that could have been cut from that book.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

I also think part of his problem is that he tends to get too detailed when he writes. He doesn't know how to edit himself, and as a result a lot of his scenes tend to go on longer than they need to and include an obnoxious amount of unnecessary details. This makes his world deeper and more realized than the average fantasy author, but it also means he spends entirely too much time focusing on the small stuff instead of thinking big picture. I think Dance was the perfect example of this. There was quite a bit that could have been cut from that book.

The almost bigger problem is that a lot of the details he writes lead to entirely new subplots that he then has to resolve. The timelines/amount of action between Westeros and Essos didn't really match up, and the result was a whole lot of Danys doing nothing. To fill it, he created stupid subplots (like Quentyn Martell) that really didn't serve a larger purpose. I do think Dance did a better job of not creating new subplots, and starting to resolve some of the ones that are out there.

 

[Casualties14]

Picked up a box set of the books with a gift card from Christmas. Now I just need to find the time to get through all five of them.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

While Ned's honor may seem to be a pain in the ass as a practical matter, it clearly had some practical benefits as well.

Spoiler

The North begins to rally around the Stark children in ASOS in large part because of who Ned was as a man. The Norrys and other clans are willing to fight for "Ned's girls...", the Manderly's, and others admired Ned as a man, and that earned loyalty is now benefitting his children.[/quote]

 

[Adam]

While Ned's honor may seem to be a pain in the ass as a practical matter, it clearly had some practical benefits as well.

Spoiler

The North begins to rally around the Stark children in ASOS in large part because of who Ned was as a man. The Norrys and other clans are willing to fight for "Ned's girls...", the Manderly's, and others admired Ned as a man, and that earned loyalty is now benefitting his children.

[/QUOTE]

When the books get finished in 2268 by a virtual construct of martin living on the net, i think this will be key and while i dont think the great northern conspiracy is completely right there is an element of things going unseen that will avail themselves. Its porbably why it take so long, its pretty complex tying up all these loose ends

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

So at my roommate's behest, I started watching from the beginning a month ago. I already knew the major spoilers (SURPRISE! Sean Bean dies!) going in. Never read a page of the books, but might do so this summer. Just finished the last episode today. (When you guys talk about stuff in the books that hasn't hit TV yet, you use spoiler text, right?)

Just a reminder that this thread normally includes book discussions that may include unmarked spoilers. The "show" thread is here:

http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/official-game-of-thrones-show-thread.44128/

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

When the books get finished in 2268 by a virtual construct of martin living on the net, i think this will be key and while i dont think the great northern conspiracy is completely right there is an element of things going unseen that will avail themselves. Its porbably why it take so long, its pretty complex tying up all these loose ends

Actually, I think the stuff in the North is much less complicated than what's going on elsewhere, perhaps because it was a part of the story that was envisioned right from the start, and so suffers less (so far) from unintentional bloat. I'm kind of disappointed that the Wyman Manderly has been cut, because those scenes with Davos and the Manderlys were awesome.

 

[CardiacCavs]

Actually, I think the stuff in the North is much less complicated than what's going on elsewhere, perhaps because it was a part of the story that was envisioned right from the start, and so suffers less (so far) from unintentional bloat. I'm kind of disappointed that the Wyman Manderly has been cut, because those scenes with Davos and the Manderlys were awesome.

Where did you read this? There is no way the show would miss out on one of the few fan-pleasing events in the entire book series. Just too big of an opportunity, and it gives them an excuse to use some screen time to catch up with Osha and Rickon. Sure, probably not this season, but I don't see how they could cut out that entire plot line.

 

[Jack Brickman]

While I don't disagree that Ned inspired a ton of loyalty in his bannermen (although not the Boltons, obviously, to his son's detriment), is that any different from any other of the great lords in Westeros? None of them seem to have any trouble getting their bannermen to fight for them. Jon Arryn's bannermen still love him after his death, and he hadn't even been living in the Vale for over a decade. The lords of the Riverlands are more than willing to follow Edmure even though he's a dolt. Tywin Lannister ruled more with fear than compassion, but it worked, as you don't see any of his bannermen turning on him.

Really, the North aside, the only bannerman I can see turning on his lord is Tarly, and even then I don't think it will happen until Young Griff sacks King's Landing, kills Margaery/Tommen, and takes the throne (which I think happens in the next book).

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

While I don't disagree that Ned inspired a ton of loyalty in his bannermen (although not the Boltons, obviously, to his son's detriment), is that any different from any other of the great lords in Westeros?

I think so. I mean, Ned was declared a traitor and executed, Robb was declared a traitor and killed, Sansa is alleged to have murdered the King, and Winterfell has been burned to the ground. In many respects, House Stark no longer exists as a Great House, and any lord who hitches their wagon to that losing side is also going to be considered a traitor. Without any real hope of being able to resist militarily any retribution from the Crown. The Starks have lost completely. And yet...their bannermen remain loyal to the powerless youngest Stark children. There's really no bright political explanation for that. It's just the sheer respect/affection they have for dead and buried Ned that may end up being what saves his children.

In contrast, Baratheon bannermen flipped sides like they were pancakes at IHOP, and some Tully bannermen sided with the Lannisters when things got squirrely. The Lannisters control their bannermen solely via the fear of Lord Tywin. and I got the sense that most lords considered it possible that some bannermen may defect to the winning side.

Admittedly, the Boltons and Karstarks betrayed Robb. Still, the passion/affection some of the others have for the Starks doesn't seem to be rivaled by anyone else.