The Official Game of Thrones [A Song of Ice and Fire] Thread (includes spoilers)

[I.K.W.T]

Honestly though, where was Ghost? He was there for Sam, but not Jon?

 

[Chris]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

But what's up with the shadows she births?

It's just a form of R'hllor magic, or at least to our knowledge. Not sure if there is any deeper meaning to them. Like I said, R'hllor vs the Great Other, we're technically led to believe the former is the "good guy." But man, his magic seems evil as fuck.

 

[Rich]

I don't know now. Melisandre says it comes from R'hllor, but think about what Quaithe can do. Both are shadowbinders from Asshai.

I think Q-tip might be right. I think she may have been able to do that with or without R'hllor.

 

[Chris]

Possible.

I'm trying to think of any evidence to support or refute that theory but I can't. It has been forever though since I read the books and the show is considerably light on context.

The nature of R'hllor the Lord of Light is one of the great mysteries right now IMO. There has to be something to it even if the shadow demons come from somewhere else, though, since Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric so many times (and, in the book, Beric brings back Catelyn- which I'm not sure we ever get details on how he does that other than giving his own life?)

Maybe R'hllor is good after all and Melisandre is misinterpreting him? Bringing a friend back to life is pretty nice, ala Thoros and Beric. But birthing a shadow demon to assassinate people is kind of evil.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

My thought is that R'hllor is no more "good" than whatever motivates the Others. Remember "Coldhands" from the books, who seemed to be "good", yet also seems to have had something of the Others about him?

I think there is supposed to be some sort of balance between the Ice and the Fire, and that somehow, it got out of whack. Maybe some kind of truce/tribute was broken, or whatever. But neither of them is really "better" than the other. And I think the result of the war will be restoring that particular balance, whatever it is.

After all, both the Others and the servants of R'hllor have the ability to bring back the dead. Those brought back by the Others obviously are more feral, but there may be a reason for that. Maybe a less-feral resurrection like what happened with Coldhands is the result when the Others aren't trying to win a particular war.

And as for the "fire" resurrections, even Beric said there was something "wrong" about it, so assuming that it is a "good" thing may not be right.

Anyway, I think both of them having that power says something important. Just not exactly sure what yet.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Possible.

I'm trying to think of any evidence to support or refute that theory but I can't. It has been forever though since I read the books and the show is considerably light on context.

The nature of R'hllor the Lord of Light is one of the great mysteries right now IMO. There has to be something to it even if the shadow demons come from somewhere else, though, since Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric so many times (and, in the book, Beric brings back Catelyn- which I'm not sure we ever get details on how he does that other than giving his own life?)

Maybe R'hllor is good after all and Melisandre is misinterpreting him? Bringing a friend back to life is pretty nice, ala Thoros and Beric. But birthing a shadow demon to assassinate people is kind of evil.

I'm betting that Bran has learned the true nature of these entities during his time with the Children and my prediction would be that they open next season using Bran's perspective to begin to explain the two in greater detail.

 

[Chris]

My thought is that R'hllor is no more "good" than whatever motivates the Others. I think there is supposed to be some sort of balance between the Ice and the Fire, and that somehow, it got out of whack. Maybe some kind of truce/tribute was broken, or whatever. But neither of them is really "better" than the other. And I think the result of the war will be restoring that particular balance, whatever it is.

After all, both the Others and the servants of R'hllor have the ability to bring back the dead. Those brought back by the Others obviously are more feral, but there may be a reason for that. Even Beric said there was something "wrong" about it, so it's not really a "good" thing.

Anyway, I think both of them having that power says something important. Just not exactly sure what yet.

True, although Beric is being brought back from violent death half a dozen times. And loses a part of himself each time. That could have some negative connotation for sure.

Personally I don't think either force is "good" either and I doubt either is straight "evil" because it isn't Martin's style. But I also don' think the whole out of balance theory is very Martin-esque either, I've heard it elsewhere before. Really is a total mystery.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

True, although Beric is being brought back from violent death half a dozen times. And loses a part of himself each time. That could have some negative connotation for sure.

Personally I don't think either force is "good" either and I doubt either is straight "evil" because it isn't Martin's style. But I also don' think the whole out of balance theory is very Martin-esque either, I've heard it elsewhere before. Really is a total mystery.

I edited my post before you responded to suggest Coldhands as perhaps the kind of resurrection by the Others that isn't purely wight-ish. That may be a much closer analogy to what happened to Beric.

Anyway, I don't mean the whole "out of balance" thing as some sort of earthy-crunchy, nebulous concept. I mean it more in the sense of a negotiated truce that has somehow been broken. And from their perspective, the Others are simply trying to right it.

I'd add that one of Martin's favorite sayings is that "everyone is the hero of their own story." So, that begs the question: what is the "story" of the Others, and the Night's King in which they're the "good guys?"

 

[Chris]

Yeah. Without a doubt there is more to the Others than meets the eye. They aren't a force of pure evil. Just no way. It's probably the question that I anxiously await the most: what is their secret, their motivation, their purpose? I really hope we find out in TWOW, probably in a Bran POV.

 

[The Human Q-Tip]

Btw, what does how this season ended say about Sansa supposedly losing her character arc and "regressing" after marrying/being ra Ramsay?

I think she actually ended up with more character growth at the end of this season than she'd had through the prior four season. That line about be willing to die "while there is still some of me left" signified that she'd finally had enough of being manipulated and bullied by captors. She'd never been much of a risk taker, and had settled for tiny little victories that really didn't change her underlying situation.

But at the end, Sansa had become a person willing to take a literal jump into the complete unknown, risking her life simply to be free. Good for her.

Seems to me like Season 6 is going to see her and Theon go find Rickon and hoist the direwolf again.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

Just had an epiphany about the "You know nothing Jon Snow" line, specifically when Mel repeats it to him:

He knows nothing about who he really is, aka his lineage.

 

[Sebastian]

Just had an epiphany about the "You know nothing Jon Snow" line, specifically when Mel repeats it to him:

He knows nothing about who he really is, aka his lineage.

That and he did really, really bad on his SATs.

 

[Damien O'Connel]

That and he did really, really bad on his SATs.

The Wall is like the Tri-C of Westeros.

 

[Spectre]

You mean show Stannis, victim of character assassination? Who in all likelihood doesn't burn his daughter in the books because it makes no sense and is logistically impossible? You should know better as a book reader.

GRRM is the one who gave the info about Shireen's burning to D&D so unless he's telling them to kill characters off that he doesn't intend to in the books, it's probably coming.

 

[Chris]

GRRM is the one who gave the info about Shireen's burning to D&D so unless he's telling them to kill characters off that he doesn't intend to in the books, it's probably coming.

Doesn't mean Stannis does it. Stannis is in middle of a snowstorm and about to be in battle in the books, while Shireen and Melisandre are at the Wall.